Predestination

[Mayflower1]

Hi, I had this in the Baptist section, but some invited me here because I am studying predestination. Predestination vs. free will is something that really gets me, but after continuous study, there is so much scripture supporting predestination, I don't see how I can disagree with it. I don't know when my Mom is coming so I can't get into a lot of it, but because of man's sinful condition, man alone cannot understand what state it is in even if the gospel was shared with him. God has to move in their heart and draw them.

Think of Act 13:48, or John 1:12-13, Philippians 1:29, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11... then consider God is the one who draws people to himself, creates a clean heart, appoints people to believe, works faith in the believer, chooses who is to be holy and blameless, choosus us for salvation, grants the act of believing, grants repentance, calls according to His purpose, causes us to be born again, predestines us to adoption and salvation, and according to His purpose, and makes us born again by His will, not us, according to a various number of scriptures I have been looking into. The sinful man deceitful and desperately sick, full of evil, slave to sin, is by nature a child of wrath, and dead in his trespasses and sins... It is amazing that God by His mercy would even save those who reject Him.

My question I am still researching is it fair just to choose some?

Fairness is that we all go to hell. His grace is that we saved at least some. He sent enough to Hell to show everyone how much He despises sin and everything. That is still getting me though and I must continue my study so I can figure this out.

And then there are verses like "I will draw all men to Myself..." John 12:32 I have to look at it in context I know, but sometimes it is hard to know whether it is what it means. This I think means a certain group of people. So does it mean "all" is merely just His chosen? Why wouldn't God make it clearer?

But because of the Eternal Covenant, Man's sinful condition, and the sovreignty of God, this can be possible, I just need to pray to God and see where He leads me with His word... Is this a Baptist view? My church believes in it, but another Baptist church I went to didn't.

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi, I had this in the Baptist section, but some invited me here because I am studying predestination. Predestination vs. free will is something that really gets me, but after continuous study, there is so much scripture supporting predestination, I don't see how I can disagree with it. I don't know when my Mom is coming so I can't get into a lot of it, but because of man's sinful condition, man alone cannot understand what state it is in even if the gospel was shared with him. God has to move in their heart and draw them.

Think of Act 13:48, or John 1:12-13, Philippians 1:29, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11... then consider God is the one who draws people to himself, creates a clean heart, appoints people to believe, works faith in the believer, chooses who is to be holy and blameless, choosus us for salvation, grants the act of believing, grants repentance, calls according to His purpose, causes us to be born again, predestines us to adoption and salvation, and according to His purpose, and makes us born again by His will, not us, according to a various number of scriptures I have been looking into. The sinful man deceitful and desperately sick, full of evil, slave to sin, is by nature a child of wrath, and dead in his trespasses and sins... It is amazing that God by His mercy would even save those who reject Him.

My question I am still researching is it fair just to choose some?

Fairness is that we all go to hell. His grace is that we saved at least some. He sent enough to Hell to show everyone how much He despises sin and everything. That is still getting me though and I must continue my study so I can figure this out.

And then there are verses like "I will draw all men to Myself..." John 12:32 I have to look at it in context I know, but sometimes it is hard to know whether it is what it means. This I think means a certain group of people. So does it mean "all" is merely just His chosen? Why wouldn't God make it clearer?

But because of the Eternal Covenant, Man's sinful condition, and the sovreignty of God, this can be possible, I just need to pray to God and see where He leads me with His word... Is this a Baptist view? My church believes in it, but another Baptist church I went to didn't.

Hi lily , you are 90 percent right about the doctrines of salvation , many Baptist Church's believe in predestination to eternal life almost all Presbyterian Church's do (or should) it is part of their Creed.

You ask is it fair that God would choose , well first I would say Mercy cannot act like Justice , Justice by it's very nature must be according to fairness and Law.
Mercy on the other hand is FREE , it has to be otherwise it is no longer mercy but merit.
God chose to have mercy upon "all" , meaning all nations , Jews and Gentiles.
God also chose to have mercy upon some while hardening others for their sin , so it is not a question of injustice but qualititive generosity in saving any !
Remember the parable of the workers in the vinyard , they thought it was unfair that some who worked only an hour got a days pay , Jesus said it was not unfair , instead it exposed the generosity of the giver and the meaness of the grumblers!

Also , God's generosity far exceeds simple "save some and damn the rest" mentality , instead scripture reports "all" are invited , and IF any man will repent and trust in Christ He too (even if He be a vesel of wrath) shall be saved!!!

Never think God is unfair , always think God can only do right , and His love is exceedingly wide , even inviting men who are at war with God to the wedding feast.

God Bless
Cygnus

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Lilly,

Its clear from your post that you have thought about and looked into this subject a good deal and that is very good.

IF God were simply fair and gave us justice, than He would condemn all of us and none would be saved. It would have been wholly fair of God to send us all to hell and give grace to none. But God is gracious. Some people recieve grace INSTEAD of justice and fairness.

Remember what we find in Romans nine. Paul says "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Paul next says to the Roman Church "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" and then he replies "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory..."

Predestination certainly rubs us the wrong way. I once hated the doctrine of predestination. It is when we look at it from an artificial "humanistic" vantage point (which we all do) that it seems unfair. But God is not one of us. We are clay that He spoke into existance and gave breath and a soul.

We are beings wholly dependent on him for every aspect of our existance and we freely choose to rebel against Him. We are all deserving of His wrath.

What I find amasing is that He has chosen to save any of us from the judgement and punishment that we all deserve. He has chosen to show mercy on and save some of those that he created, and He has chosen to not to save others and to show His righteous judgements on them.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[silverdawn]

This is just my opinion on predestination.
I think that if it were true, then what would be the point of living? Why would God put us here if it didn't matter if we became christian or not, if we were just going to go to hell anyway? Plus, alot of bible verses say "whosoever" (ie, John 3:15). I think that God loves all of us and we all have a chance to go to heaven.
Plus, this creates fear. I'm sure that some people are worrying about whether or not they are one of the elect.

 

[nightisfarspent]

Like cygnus said God can only do right. The saving of God's people is indeed an act of complete, unmerited grace. However, it is also completely just. Christ's righteousness covers us. Psalm 85:10 says, "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." It was Calvary where justice was satisfied on behalf of His chosen. It is an amazing, transcending truth. Predestination gives all the glory to God. It also strips man of any dillusions of righteousness. He can only do good. He alone can do good. May God grant us continuing faith in Him and His Word.

 

[lmnop9876]

This is just my opinion on predestination.
I think that if it were true, then what would be the point of living? Why would God put us here if it didn't matter if we became christian or not, if we were just going to go to hell anyway? Plus, alot of bible verses say "whosoever" (ie, John 3:15). I think that God loves all of us and we all have a chance to go to heaven.
Plus, this creates fear. I'm sure that some people are worrying about whether or not they are one of the elect.

i used this analogy in another thread, and i liked it, so i thought i'd use it again.
which of these mothers would you rather have?

mother number 1: a mother knows before her baby is born that it will be beautiful (at least to her), because she loves it and wants to give it a happy life full of love.

mother number 2:a mother can love her baby and decide to keep it because she sees the ultrasound and sees that her baby is beautiful.

???

which God would you rather have?

God number 1: God knew before time that we would be saved, because He loved us and chose to give us life.

God number 2: God can love us and decide to save us because He looks at us and sees that we will do what it takes to be saved.

???

 

[arunma]

This is just my opinion on predestination.
I think that if it were true, then what would be the point of living? Why would God put us here if it didn't matter if we became christian or not, if we were just going to go to hell anyway? Plus, alot of bible verses say "whosoever" (ie, John 3:15). I think that God loves all of us and we all have a chance to go to heaven.
Plus, this creates fear. I'm sure that some people are worrying about whether or not they are one of the elect.

Actually, the doctrines of grace do not require us to live in the fear that we are not on God's "predestination list." On the contrary, your faith in Christ is sure evidence that you are of God's elect (whether you're willing to admit it or not), and that you are saved by the grace of God apart from your own ability to receive the Gospel.

The doctrines of grace are older than the Apostle Paul and John the Evangelist. One of the greatest teachings on God's election comes from the Prophet Moses, which he explains in much the same way as Pjw's analogy of the unconditionally loving mother.

It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (Deuteronomy 7:7-8)
​

Paul also says,

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die-- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (Romans 5:6-9)
​

It is important for us to note that God does not seem to explain to us why he loves us, but that he tells us very much about the consequences of his love for us. And we should not expect it any other way, for God is a Father to us. Do parents love their children because of merit? Although parents are always pleased with obedient children, parents' love for their children is not based on works, but is a consequence of parenthood. In like manner, God loves us for no other reason than that we are his children, whom he adopted by the blood of Christ. So rather than question why God does not love those who are not his children, we ought to rejoice in his love, and encourage those outside of the church to also be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[mlqurgw]

lilyOO, you are on the right track. It seems that God has revealed who He is and who we are to you so this shouldn't be to much of a problem. The truth is that God has and does deal fairly with all men. Not according to our idea of fairness but His. We must always be careful to not put our ideas of who God ought to be into our theology.
Now, what do I mean when I say that He has dealt fairly and justly with all men? We read in Psa. 85:10 that mercy and truth are met together and righteousness and peace have kissed each other. How is that possible? Truth and righteousness demand the punishment of sinners and mercy and peace are at odds with them. They have met together and kissed in Christ alone. God in perfect unbending righteousness and justice poured out His unmitigated wrath against the sin of the elect on Christ their substitiute. So that He in mercy and peace can now pour out His bleesings and love on them who have been already punished in Christ. So the question then is why didn't God put all men in Christ? As you have already shown, it is not for us to question God's right to what what He will with His own. It is ours to rejoice that He did what He did for us.

 

[Mayflower1]

lilyOO, you are on the right track. It seems that God has revealed who He is and who we are to you so this shouldn't be to much of a problem. The truth is that God has and does deal fairly with all men. Not according to our idea of fairness but His. We must always be careful to not put our ideas of who God ought to be into our theology.
Now, what do I mean when I say that He has dealt fairly and justly with all men? We read in Psa. 85:10 that mercy and truth are met together and righteousness and peace have kissed each other. How is that possible? Truth and righteousness demand the punishment of sinners and mercy and peace are at odds with them. They have met together and kissed in Christ alone. God in perfect unbending righteousness and justice poured out His unmitigated wrath against the sin of the elect on Christ their substitiute. So that He in mercy and peace can now pour out His bleesings and love on them who have been already punished in Christ. So the question then is why didn't God put all men in Christ? As you have already shown, it is not for us to question God's right to what what He will with His own. It is ours to rejoice that He did what He did for us.

I understand all except for the part of unmitigated wrath. As for the question on why didn't God put all men in Christ... I do have a thought on that. If God allowed everyone to be saved, then we wouldn't give much thought to our sin nature and that it was the thing that seperated us from God to begin with... I don't know. Just a thought, but it is the will of God, and I am trying to remember three things: It IS what it IS, and Knowledge comes before understanding, and God will never lead me in the wrong direction as long as I study from His word. I need to study God's word more so I can validate this, but because of man's sinful nature, it seems as if predestination is! It is just so mind boggling! And I thought it would get easier after I got saved.

 

[mlqurgw]

I understand all except for the part of unmitigated wrath. As for the question on why didn't God put all men in Christ... I do have a thought on that. If God allowed everyone to be saved, then we wouldn't give much thought to our sin nature and that it was the thing that seperated us from God to begin with... I don't know. Just a thought, but it is the will of God, and I am trying to remember three things: It IS what it IS, and Knowledge comes before understanding, and God will never lead me in the wrong direction as long as I study from His word. I need to study God's word more so I can validate this, but because of man's sinful nature, it seems as if predestination is! It is just so mind boggling! And I thought it would get easier after I got saved.

I love to talk with someone who asks questions because they want to know the answers. If you keep those three things in mind you will not go far wrong. Unmitigated means that God poured out all that was deserved. To mitigate is to punish less than deserved.
What passages are giving you trouble?

 

[Mayflower1]

I am not sure what passages are giving me trouble. I just have questions really at the moment.

Does God cause or allow infertility for His purpose? Is it Satan or did God predestine it to be that way? I read about how Abimelech's wife and maids couldn't have children nor did he have sexual contact with Sarah because he didn't know she was Abraham's wife...


I am looking for that verse that is talking of before the foundation of the world... I looked it up but I can't find it and don't remember where it is anymore!

Well, that is my first question. Really, I am just trying to figure it out, but from the verses I studied, not to mention how a sinful nature could never choose Christ alone, predestination had to take some part! We had to be elected beforehand.

Oh yeh, and what does "double predestination" mean? If it means we are puppets, even our breath is predestined, I haven't found anything on that!

 

[cygnusx1]

I am not sure what passages are giving me trouble. I just have questions really at the moment.

Does God cause or allow infertility for His purpose?

Yes God is behind all events for good , we cannot see it by reason , but we can see it by faith ,

Romans 8:28"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God"


Paul demonstrates his understanding matches his experience ......

Philippians 1:12-18"But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel,

Is it Satan or did God predestine it to be that way? I read about how Abimelech's wife and maids couldn't have children nor did he have sexual contact with Sarah because he didn't know she was Abraham's wife...

even suffering works for our good ;

II Corinthians 4:17"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, IS WORKING FOR US a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory"

I am looking for that verse that is talking of before the foundation of the world... I looked it up but I can't find it and don't remember where it is anymore!

Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before him in love; (WEB)
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: (ASV)
Even as he made selection of us in him from the first, so that we might be holy and free from all evil before him in love: (BBE)
according as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love; (DBY)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

Well, that is my first question. Really, I am just trying to figure it out, but from the verses I studied, not to mention how a sinful nature could never choose Christ alone, predestination had to take some part! We had to be elected beforehand.

yes Romans 8 will answer that.

Oh yeh, and what does "double predestination" mean? If it means we are puppets, even our breath is predestined, I haven't found anything on that!

strictly speaking there is no double predestination , in the sense that God does not choose or infuse who will be wicked , ; Election is out of fallen mankind , Predestination and Election are always positive , it's counterpart , called reprobation should be handled with great care , there are at least two sides to Reprobation , and being none -elect does not condemn anymore than being human , man is born already condemned from Adam onwards.


Hope this helped.

 

[heymikey80]

My question I am still researching is it fair just to choose some?

I'd suggest Matthew 20:1-15. That was what impressed me about this teaching being Biblical. Since God's not meting out justice, it's perfectly fair to give people what the giver wishes to whom he wishes. In fact it's unfair to prevent the giver from giving what he wishes to whom he wishes.

Fairness is that we all go to hell. His grace is that we saved at least some. He sent enough to Hell to show everyone how much He despises sin and everything. That is still getting me though and I must continue my study so I can figure this out.

Yes, I think you're right. If anyone wants justice =point, point= there, there's the Lake of Fire right there .... Oh, you want grace, well, it's given by different rules.

And then there are verses like "I will draw all men to Myself..." John 12:32 I have to look at it in context I know, but sometimes it is hard to know whether it is what it means. This I think means a certain group of people. So does it mean "all" is merely just His chosen? Why wouldn't God make it clearer?

Greek is not allways "comprehensively everyone" when it says "all". English is this way, too -- we all think we know all sorts of reasons why English is all directly understood ... but in reality, it's flexed all around to emphasize what all the speaker wants to communicate. A quick look at Mark 1:5 shows "all Jerusalem" came out to see John -- but it wasn't everyone without exception. I've little doubt some people of the Sanhedrin didn't make the trek, and it doesn't seem Herod ever did, either.

But because of the Eternal Covenant, Man's sinful condition, and the sovreignty of God, this can be possible, I just need to pray to God and see where He leads me with His word... Is this a Baptist view? My church believes in it, but another Baptist church I went to didn't.

It's not a demanded feature of all Baptist churches, no (what is? Oh, yeah, baptism by immersion on profession of faith). Reformed Baptists hold to the view, and many Southern Baptists realize their history came from the London Baptists, who held to this view as well.

Also, a good book on Predestination and the Doctrines of Grace is Loraine Boettner's "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination"

 

[heymikey80]

I am not sure what passages are giving me trouble. I just have questions really at the moment.

Does God cause or allow infertility for His purpose? Is it Satan or did God predestine it to be that way? I read about how Abimelech's wife and maids couldn't have children nor did he have sexual contact with Sarah because he didn't know she was Abraham's wife...

Yes. Remember how God closed Sarah's womb and instead gave Abraham the promised Isaac? God does a lot of that. And yes it's a struggle, as many people can tell you. Many things in life are struggles.

If it means we are puppets, even our breath is predestined, I haven't found anything on that!

It doesn't mean you're puppets, but consider (this thought came from Blaise Pascal's Pensees)

If Cleopatra's nose were just a bit longer ...
Marc Antony likely wouldn't have fallen for her ...
Octavian wouldn't have attacked him ...
Octavian probably wouldn't have built the Empire as Augustus Caesar ...
Rome might not have had despots degrading it ...
and we might still be living under the Roman Empire.
​

Given that "God has made all things, and there's nothing that's made that He hasn't made", along with "God knows all things, where can I flee to hide from your Spirit, o God?" I think it is highly likely that God made the universe with each breath in mind and accounted for.

Is it constantly controlled to where you do it whether you want or not? Well no. That's the difference between fatalism and Predestination (the book above would help explain that). But Predestination also considers that our wills are also designed by God to will and to act specific ways. We're free to will and to act upon each other in God's Creation. But we're also placed in God's Creation exactly where He wants, to accomplish His design for His Creation -- even when we're sinful people -- and at that, even in spite of ourselves.

But God is God; we're not. He's really not like us.

 

[Mayflower1]

Wow thanks a lot! And yes, that was the verse I was looking for. It says "Lay before the foundation of the world." and I definitely understand that, but God doesn't in exist time, He made time (oops! for us!) us. So is His election like the same then, now, and forever? Or is it different?

 

[BBAS 64]

I am not sure what passages are giving me trouble. I just have questions really at the moment.

Does God cause or allow infertility for His purpose? Is it Satan or did God predestine it to be that way? I read about how Abimelech's wife and maids couldn't have children nor did he have sexual contact with Sarah because he didn't know she was Abraham's wife...


I am looking for that verse that is talking of before the foundation of the world... I looked it up but I can't find it and don't remember where it is anymore!

Well, that is my first question. Really, I am just trying to figure it out, but from the verses I studied, not to mention how a sinful nature could never choose Christ alone, predestination had to take some part! We had to be elected beforehand.

Oh yeh, and what does "double predestination" mean? If it means we are puppets, even our breath is predestined, I haven't found anything on that!

Good Day, Lily

Sproul addresses "double"

http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePre...on_Sproul.html

Peace to u,

Bill