Predestination

[Gal328]

How many people here believe it and why.

 

[holeinone]

I believe it because the word of God clearly shows it and teaches it.

 

[BarbB]

You mean by these verses, hole in one?

RO 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. [29] For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. [4] For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love [5] he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. [7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace [8] that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. [9] And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, [10] to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, [12] in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. [13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

I do not believe that this predestination means that on day one, God wrote a list that included BarbB and holeinone but didn't include Hitler, but that he knew (foreknew) that BarbB and holeinone would answer his beckoning and want to be reconciled to him and that Hitler would follow his own gods.

 

[holeinone]

You mean by these verses, hole in one?




I do not believe that this predestination means that on day one, God wrote a list that included BarbB and holeinone but didn't include Hitler, but that he knew (foreknew) that BarbB and holeinone would answer his beckoning and want to be reconciled to him and that Hitler would follow his own gods.

That would mean , my new buddy, that we earned our salvation because God looks down the tube of time and sees we make a correct choice, he then rewards that choice. If he is rewarding our correct choice it is not a salvation of Grace and Mercy but one of wages due, God owed it to us because we chose correctly.

In effect we elected him not He us.

I think the bible is full of examples where God has predestined nations and people.

It is not that people that want to come can not, but those that God does not act on will follow what they desire, and that will never be to come to Christ.



(Eph 1:11 KJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

(Phil 2:13 KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

(2 Tim 1:9 KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

(Acts 22:14 KJV) And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

(Eph 1:9 KJV) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

(John 10:28 KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(Psa 65:4 KJV) Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

(John 3:27 KJV) John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

(John 6:29 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

(Acts 13:48 KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

(John 6:37 KJV) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(John 6:44 KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 10:27 KJV) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

(John 15:19 KJV) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

(John 17:6 KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

(John 17:9 KJV) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

(Rom 8:28 KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

(Rom 8:33 KJV) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

(Rom 11:29 KJV) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

(Phil 1:6 KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

(1 Th 1:4 KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

(Gal 1:15-16 KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, {16} To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

(Eph 1:4-6 KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: {5} Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, {6} To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

(2 Th 2:13 KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

(1 John 3:9 KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom," Luke 12:82.

"Thou hast wrought all our works in us," Isaiah 26:12.

"God worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," Philippians 2:13.

"Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ to believe on him," Philippians 1:29.

"Of ourselves we can do nothing," John 15:5.

"We are not sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves," 2 Corinthians 3:5.

"We are by nature the children of wrath, dead in trespasses and sins," Ephesians 2:1-3.

"Faith is not of ourselves: it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8.

"Who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive, why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received?" 1 Corinthians 4:7.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, who are taught to do evil," Jeremiah 13:23.

I love Isaiah.

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.


Isa 61:11
For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

All that believe are the elect, but we believe because we are elect ( St Augustine)

God bless you sister !

 

[Dmckay]

Based on the original question of the OP, yes I believe it. Why, it is stated in Scripture as being the case:
Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29,30: 1Cor. 2:7;and Eph 1:5.

 

[Dmckay]

Perhaps your question should have been, What do you believe that it means, and how does it apply to salvation? The fact that it is taught in Scripture is sufficient reason to believe it. What is actually the question is what does it mean and how does it apply that is the bone of contention where predestination is concerned.

 

[woobadooba]

That would mean , my new buddy, that we earned our salvation because God looks down the tube of time and sees we make a correct choice, he then rewards that choice. If he is rewarding our correct choice it is not a salvation of Grace and Mercy but one of wages due, God owed it to us because we chose correctly.

Or it could mean that even if God foreknew that all humankind would absolutely reject His plan of salvation, Jesus still would have died for us all. Therefore, it has nothing to do with our works, but everything to do with God's grace..

And this view makes sense since the Bible makes it quite clear that certain names will be blotted out of the book of life. Thus this implies that every name of every person that ever was, is, and will be, is recorded in it.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev. 3:5

Hence, all people are given the opportunity to be saved.

 

[WAB]

Or it could mean that even if God foreknew that all humankind would absolutely reject His plan of salvation, Jesus still would have died for us all. Therefore, it has nothing to do with our works, but everything to do with God's grace..

And this view makes sense since the Bible makes it quite clear that certain names will be blotted out of the book of life. Thus this implies that every name of every person that ever was, is, and will be, is recorded in it.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev. 3:5

Hence, all people are given the opportunity to be saved.

And...

 

[Erinwilcox]

Going back to the original topic, I do heartily believe in predestination because it is a doctrine emphatically taught in the Bible.

 

[Trainwreck]

Well as BarbB started to point out, predestination brings up one very large logical problem; why would God predestine Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer to bring such evil into this world only so he could send them to hell later? It's clear that we can make our own choices.

 

[cygnusx1]

I love the whole concept of Predestination , especially the bit where humans get in a state and jump up and down ......... ahahaa , not so big and important now are we

 

[Erinwilcox]

It's clear that we can make our own choices.

That's clearly not what my Bible teaches. It says that none seeks after God, not one man seeks after good. If man can't seek after God, how can he choose Him?

 

[CCWoody]

Well as BarbB started to point out, predestination brings up one very large logical problem; why would God predestine Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer to bring such evil into this world only so he could send them to hell later? It's clear that we can make our own choices.

The permission of evil in the world is not a "logical" problem at all. You may not like it and you may think it an outrageous thing for God to knowingly permit, but it is not a logic problem. It would be a moral one, but not a logical one.

The logical problem is not ours. Either you must deny God his Omniscience or you must deny God his Omnipotence. Else, you are left with a logical contradiction in your theology.

Logic is on our side....

1. ) Grant God’s Omniscience -- that is, not only His perfect Foreknowledge of all that Is and Will Be within the context of Creation, but also, Alone in Eternity, having not yet spoken Light into existence, His perfect Foreknowledge of All Potentialities -- i.e., Alone in Eternity, God’s perfect Foreknowledge of an infinite number of possible Creations, His perfect foreknowledge of the operations of Free Will in each and every possible Creation, from Beginning to End.

2.) Grant God’s Sovereign Freedom of Action. Alone in Eternity, God enjoys perfectly Sovereign and Inviolate Freedom of Action.

Grant God’s perfect Foreknowledge of All Potentialities, and Sovereign Freedom of Action, and you have just given the Calvinist the entirety of the debate. For if God, alone in Eternity, perfectly Foreknows all possible Creations, and perfectly Foreknows the operations of Free Will in each, from Beginning to End, and with Sovereign Freedom of Action Wills to give Actuality to the Creation of His choosing, then simply by the Act of Creation, He has Predestined all that will occur in that Creation -- having chosen to give Actuality to That One, in preference to all other Potential Creations which He could have willed into existence instead.

This is not to deny God’s capacity for Miraculous Intervention, for we worship a dynamic, Living God; but it does establish that God’s Interventions are themselves Predestined by Him from the Beginning, for He has Foreknown all possible Creations, and could have given Actuality to a Creation in which He would not intervene, or would intervene differently; But He Sovereignly Willed to give Actuality to the Creation (foreknown from beginning to end) which He chose, including therein His Foreknowledge of all Interventions which He would Effect.

Grant God’s Omniscience and Omnipotence, and the Augustinian/Calvinist will win the debate at its very root, every time. The Pelagian heretics knew this, which is exactly why they sought to deny God’s Omniscience -- they rightly knew it to be the anvil upon which Augustine would break them! And so it is with the Pelagians and semi-Pelagians in the Church of Christ today.

We will win. In fact, demonstrating the logic our our argument is blastedly EASY.

 

[Dmckay]

Well as BarbB started to point out, predestination brings up one very large logical problem; why would God predestine Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer to bring such evil into this world only so he could send them to hell later? It's clear that we can make our own choices.

Trainwreck,

It sounds like you are making a mistake similar to those who reject predestination because they reject the idea that there might be those who are created just to be destroyed. Even though this is exactly what Paul addresses in Romans 9-11, but particularly chapter 9. In the first 8 Chapters Paul presents the evidence which convicts the entire world of sin, the need for redemption, the provision G-d made for that redemption, and the process of sanctification that is the christian walk. He finishes up in chapter 8 by stating that nothing can remove us from our position of love which is in Christ Jesus.

Then in chapters 9-11 Paul deals with those who would raise the question of, "Hey, what about the Jews? G-d made promises to them also, but if we have taken their place then just how trustworthy is G-d's Word?" This is exactly what Paul is dealing with in these chapters. Your question is directly addressed in 9:9 "For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON." 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,"

In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were told that on the day in which they ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would surely die. In Romans 5 Paul makes it clear that the same penalty of death that was passed to Adam and Eve was passed down to all of mankind through them. Had G-d said that on the day that they ate of the fruit they would turn into dogs, you would expect that all of their descendants would be puppies. Why would you find it had to accept that all of Adam and Eve's descendants are born condemned to death? They were warned before they fell that it would happen to them and their children. It was predestined.

G-d is just as glorified when He righteously judges and condemns a sinner, as He is when He chooses to extend His grace and save whom He chooses. The judgement of all sinners was also predestined before mankind fell, if you sin, you die, and they chose to sin.

 

[Gal328]

Or it could mean that even if God foreknew that all humankind would absolutely reject His plan of salvation, Jesus still would have died for us all. Therefore, it has nothing to do with our works, but everything to do with God's grace..

And this view makes sense since the Bible makes it quite clear that certain names will be blotted out of the book of life. Thus this implies that every name of every person that ever was, is, and will be, is recorded in it.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev. 3:5

Hence, all people are given the opportunity to be saved.

I'm not really sure whether I completely agree or disagree what you said. So its defunitly worth considering.

 

[Reformationist]

Or it could mean that even if God foreknew that all humankind would absolutely reject His plan of salvation, Jesus still would have died for us all. Therefore, it has nothing to do with our works, but everything to do with God's grace..

Okay. Let me see if I can address this methodically. First, God did foreknow that, apart from His regenerative grace, all humankind would absolutely reject Him. Jesus absolutely did die for people who, if left in their unregenerate state, would continue in rebellion unto their death. Our salvation has absolutely nothing to do with our works but everything to do with God's grace.

All of that said, it is ridiculously incongruous to claim that Jesus went to the Cross for everyone unless your intention is to likewise claim that His death wasn't actually purposed to ensure a single person's salvation.

Hence, all people are given the opportunity to be saved.

I don't know why you use the word "hence," as if you draw your conclusion of an universal "opportunity of salvation" from the verse you cite. Nothing in that verse speaks of anyone having an "opportunity" of salvation, much less that everyone has such an opportunity.

I am curious, however, what you believe causes this "opportunity to be saved" to an "actuality of being saved."

Care to elaborate?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Well as BarbB started to point out, predestination brings up one very large logical problem; why would God predestine Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer to bring such evil into this world only so he could send them to hell later? It's clear that we can make our own choices.

As predestination is not a denial that man makes his own choices, I fail to see your point. Do you mean to imply that man becomes saved due to a choice he freely makes?

God bless

 

[woobadooba]

All of that said, it is ridiculously incongruous to claim that Jesus went to the Cross for everyone unless your intention is to likewise claim that His death wasn't actually purposed to ensure a single person's salvation.

The reason why you are having trouble grasping what I've said is because you have a false understanding of the love of God.

And by the way, for what purpose did Jesus go to the cross?

 

[frumanchu]

The reason why you are having trouble grasping what I've said is because you have a false understanding of the love of God.

OR, he grasps it just fine and quite knowingly rejects it as being incorrect

And by the way, for what purpose did Jesus go to the cross?

To save His people from their sins.

 

[woobadooba]

To save His people from their sins.

Are you sure that this is the only reason Jesus went to the cross?

"he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Rom. 3:26

You see, Jesus didn't just go to the cross to justify sinners, but to show that God is just!

So my point is correct in that even if God foreknew that no one would accept His plan of salvation, or gift of eternal life, Jesus still would have gone to the cross.

The question that ought to be answered now is why would Jesus have to go the cross to die, to show that God is just?

Clue: "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Eph. 6:12