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Predestination

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BBAS 64

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Good Day, All

Here is the CC,

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.”


Peace to u,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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Axion said:
Augustine changed his view on predestination many times. The writing above is from his extreme period. But whatever this essay may say, the Church Fathers are not of themselves infallible. Not every writing of any particular church father represents the teaching of the Church. It is the consensus of the magisterial teaching that represents the view of the Church.


The Church has made its view clear in Councils such as Trent and in the many condemnations of Jansenism - the Catholic form of double predestinarianism - that the idea of god picking some and condemning others, regardless of their individual choices or response to grace, is heretical.

Good Day, Axion

Just think of me as a person from the past who learned at the feet of Augustine in Africa, and voted for him as Bishop based on his teaching.

All these thing that you point to have not happend yet so they do not impact the teaching of the Bishop under whom I sit.

I may see these things as contray to the teaching of my Bishop and there fore reject them as incompatable with the faith once and down to the saints.


Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Benedicta00

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Markh said:
He was proud of it! The most ardent advocate of it!

It is a very nasty idea
that:

" For His own glorification, and without any regard to original sin, (God) has created some as "vessels of mercy", others as "vessels of wrath". Those created for hell He has also predestined for sin, and whatever faith and righteousness they may exhibit are at most only apparent, since all graces and means of salvation are efficacious only in those predestined for heaven."

It is such a cruel idea! No wonder when Calvin presented this idea many people returned to Catholicism!

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12376b.htm

Yes the Calvin belief is, he prepares vessels for destruction so he can be glorified, how sick.
 
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Benedicta00

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Axion

Just think of me as a person from the past who learned at the feet of Augustine in Africa, and voted for him as Bishop based on his teaching.

All these thing that you point to have not happend yet so they do not impact the teaching of the Bishop under whom I sit.

I may see these things as contray to the teaching of my Bishop and there fore reject them as incompatable with the faith once and down to the saints.


Peace to u,

Bill

And the deal is, when the Church, the magisterium comes along and corrects anything Augustine wrote, we submit to the Church, not to Augustine errors.


That is something Augustine himself would have done in a second.

If the Church has not condemned or defined something we can be free to believe as long as we do not contradict our faith…in Augustines day, the faith was under developed at that time, as some things now are under developed as well, so we are to remain open, we have a pious belief, not a matter of revealed truth, so we are open to the Church, not a theologian but the Church correcting us in the future if the Church finds error in what a theologian originally taught.
 
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Benedicta00

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ChristRules said:
The church may not officially say too much on this mystery but the Scriptures and Church Fathers sure do. Let's start with the Scriptures.

The Scriptures teach that God made some "vessel's unto dishonor," and "endures with longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" so that "He might make known the riches of His glory to us, vessels of mercy." In other words God is showing us that we are no different than vessels of wrath and except for God's Sovereign grace on us we would also be destroyed, this revealed truth should bring us great joy for His love for and choice of us for salvation.

ROM 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
ROM 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Augustine wrote the same interpretation of these verses:

"We must thoroughly examine the Apostle's purpose as to why, in order to emphasize grace, [God] did not choose that the one of whom it was said Jacob I loved, should glory except in the Lord [Mal. 1:3, 1 Co. 1:31]. [Jacob and Esau] were from the same father and the same mother, by one act of intercourse - - and before they had done anything good or evil, God loved the one and hated the other. This was so that Jacob would realize that he was from the lump of original iniquity when he saw that his brother, with whom he had a common origin, in justice deserved to be condemned, and that he could be distinguished only through grace. For, [Paul] says, even before they were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not by works but by His call -- [Rebecca] was told, 'The elder shall serve the younger.'" (The excerpts from Augustine on the Epistles of Paul compiled by the English monk, Bede the Venerable (c. 673-735) p.84-87)

Aquinas wrote the following:

"I answer that, God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Ar1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Q22:Ar2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Q22:Ar1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin." (The Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas, Question 23: Of the Predestination).

And here’s the other deal- Aquinas was Catholics, as was Augustine and St. Paul was too.

They wrote things in light of consistent Catholic teaching- Paul wrote his epistles in light of the faith that Christ handed down, which is Catholic teaching.

You are reading in light of all the errors of Calvin or whoever tweak him, so of course you seeing something very different from me.

For example:

"I answer that, God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Ar1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Q22:Ar2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Q22:Ar1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin." (The Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas, Question 23: Of the Predestination).

Lots of free will in that.

I see this is very consistent with what I have posted so far, God will allow a person to fall into sin, thus he reprobates them by allowing them to fall into sin- he does not presue them with his special graces as he does with the elect. If a person is to be saved after they reach this point of spiritual ruin, it will be by them making an act of their- not by God’s grace will returning and repenting.

This is what you have cited truly interprets. I think the fact the Aqanuis was a Catholic supports the idea that he wrote this in light of Catholic teaching- but again- this is theory, the Church does not define officially any details, all the great thinkers and theologians in the world can not speak for the magisterium who alone as the authority to teach us revealed truth.

What the Church has officially taught us is, what predestination is not and Calvinism was condemned, sorry. Your not reading any of the Catholic theologians correctly. They simply can not be read apart from Catholic teaching.
 
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Radagast

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ps139 said:
Hey Holly, good question!

The laymans position:
We have free will.
Since God exists outside of time, He knows all things, past, present, future.

In other words, while we still have free will, He knows everything.

Trying to wrap your mind around time not existing is pretty tough :)

And while everyone does not make it to heaven, all are given a chance.
An excellent post, in every way! :bow:

And the other part of the Church's official position is that Molinists (who emphasise free will more) and Thomists (who emphasise the role of God more) should not abuse each other, misrepresent each other's position, or call each other heretics.

That is a papal decision that we might almost take as a CF rule... :)

This bit from a sermon by Clement of Alexandria (around 200 AD) on Mark 10:17–31 is also great (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0207.htm):

“If thou wilt be perfect” [Matthew 19:21]. Consequently he was not yet perfect. For nothing is more perfect than what is perfect. And divinely the expression “if thou wilt” showed the self-determination of the soul holding converse with Him. For choice depended on the man as being free; but the gift on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing and are exceedingly earnest, and ask, that so their salvation may become their own. For God compels not (for compulsion is repugnant to God), but supplies to those who seek, and bestows on those who ask, and opens to those who knock. If thou wilt, then, if thou really wiliest, and art not deceiving thyself, acquire what thou lackest. One thing is lacking thee – the one thing which abides, the good, that which is now above the law, which the law gives not, which the law contains not, which is the prerogative of those who live.

… But the Lord replies, “Because what is impossible with men is possible with God” [Mark 10:27]. This again is full of great wisdom. For a man by himself working and toiling at freedom from passion achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself very desirous and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. For God conspires with willing souls. But if they abandon their eagerness, the spirit which is bestowed by God is also restrained.
-- Radagast
 
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tigersnare

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Shelb5 said:
We know that, but you know, we know, Tiger that you believe they are sinners because God actively ordained that they would be.

You are incorrect, this is not what I believe.


Shelb5 said:
Calvin’s mistake was he wanted to have an answer for everything and we can not know the mind of God.

Calvin did not claim to know the mind of God and he was silent where the word was silent.
 
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D'Ann

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Greetings Tigersnare,

tigersnare said:
You are incorrect, this is not what I believe.

I don't know that much about Calvinist beliefs... and I'm wondering what do you believe regarding this particular subject... Predestination?

Out of fairness to you... Although, I do not know very much about this subject... I do know many Catholic apologists who do... I will be respectful, but I will ask you many questions. Please let us convey with respect and not with trying to convert each other... (for now anyway).


God's Peace,

Debbie
 
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tigersnare

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D'Ann said:
Greetings Tigersnare,



I don't know that much about Calvinist beliefs... and I wondering what do you believe regarding this particular subject... Predestination?

Out of fairness to you... Although, I do not know very much about this subject... I do know many Catholic apologists who do... I will be respectful, but I will ask you many questions. Please let us convey with respect and not with trying to convert each other... (for now anyway).


God's Peace,

Debbie

It was claimed that I beleive people are sinners because God activley ordains that they would be.

This is incorrect on a few accounts.

1. All men are sinners from birth, the only thing God does to actively ordain that is to bring them into this world. But God is not the author of sin, we have ourselves to blame for our sin.

2. All men are destined for hell because of their sin, God does not have to unjustly send them there.

3. Out of the richness of his Grace God has ordained that many would come to faith and repetance, and eventually eternally life through his son. But even man coming to faith and repentance is a work of God, a dead man can not understand the things of the spirit, or even see the kingdom, much less join it.

4. Not all men are elect, "Esau I hated". God is love, but God is also just. Giving grace is not justice, or fair, it is grace which no one deserves.

This is what I beleive...

I'd be happy to answer any more questions from you. Thank you for your sincere attitude and your general kindness.
 
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Benedicta00

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tigersnare said:
It was claimed that I beleive people are sinners because God activley ordains that they would be.

This is incorrect on a few accounts.

1. All men are sinners from birth, the only thing God does to actively ordain that is to bring them into this world. But God is not the author of sin, we have ourselves to blame for our sin.

2. All men are destined for hell because of their sin, God does not have to unjustly send them there.

3. Out of the richness of his Grace God has ordained that many would come to faith and repetance, and eventually eternally life through his son. But even man coming to faith and repentance is a work of God, a dead man can not understand the things of the spirit, or even see the kingdom, much less join it.

4. Not all men are elect, "Esau I hated". God is love, but God is also just. Giving grace is not justice, or fair, it is grace which no one deserves.

This is what I beleive...

I'd be happy to answer any more questions from you. Thank you for your sincere attitude and your general kindness.


Exactly what I said, he creates souls who he has no intention on saving. How do you see this as anything less than him predestining them to hell?

You say God is sovereign but you just tied up his hands, 'we brought sin in the world and he just decided to save a few, not all so if they go to hell, it’s not his fault.'

What kind of tap dance is that?
 
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Benedicta00

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Roman 9 is in light of the Jews, the chosen ones, and their rejection of Christ, they are the vessels prepared destruction, not mankind and God prepared them in light of their rejection. Meaning, he still used them to fulfil his plan of salvation for mankind, knowing they would reject it, thus they were vessels prepared for destruction.
 
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ps139

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I am closing this temporarily for some clean up.

This is not a debate on Calvinism.

Catholic-Calvinists debate should go to General Theology or Soteriology.

If you want to ask a Calvinist something, they have a convenient forum called "Ask a Calvinist."

This thread is on Catholic Predestination, not Calvinism.
 
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