Predestination

[Ave Maria]

What is the Catholic position on predestination in easy to understand laymen's terms?

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Excellent question Holly. Someone very kindly posted this link to a Catholic site exploring some issues relating to Calvinism and Arminianism. I think it exlains things quite well...but some of the thomist beliefs are quite scary (to me, anyway...I'm just glad I don't have to agree).

*Wonders if it's ever a good idea to disagree with Calvinists and Thomists in the same post :o *

Pax

 

[ps139]

Hey Holly, good question!

The laymans position:
We have free will.
Since God exists outside of time, He knows all things, past, present, future.

In other words, while we still have free will, He knows everything.

Trying to wrap your mind around time not existing is pretty tough

And while everyone does not make it to heaven, all are given a chance.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Very well explained ps139.

 

[tigersnare]

Might be helpful to read Augustine on the subject. Unfortunatly I don't have a link for you, but I'm sure you could google it.

 

[Ave Maria]

Thanks guys! Ps139, that was a very helpful answer.

 

[King of the Nations]

What is the Catholic position on predestination in easy to understand laymen's terms?

The way I would say it is that all of us are indeed "predestined" to Heaven. That does not mean that we will all get there.

If my boss schedules a trip for me from New York to Dallas, I am destined for Dallas. If my boss scheduled the trip to Dallas before I was even hired on to the company (thinking that whoever fills this position next will go, for example), I could say I was "predestined" to go to Dallas.

Either way. Doesn't necessarily mean I will get there. The plane could blow up... ...(Sorry. Unpleasant thought... )...It could run out of gas and need to stop before it arrives at its destination. I could open the door and jump out mid-flight, etc.

Make sense?



Greg

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

King of the Nations-are all human beings predestined then? Is that an acceptable thing to believe from a Catholic position? I ask because, given your analogy, I would like to think that God would never "pass over" passively or actively those who are not predestined, but I'm ot sure if this is OK..thanks..

Pax,
Rob

 

[King of the Nations]

King of the Nations-are all human beings predestined then? Is that an acceptable thing to believe from a Catholic position? I ask because, given your analogy, I would like to think that God would never "pass over" passively or actively those who are not predestined, but I'm ot sure if this is OK..thanks..

Pax,
Rob

Rob,

If what you're asking is, "There isn't anybody that God doesn't want to have go to Heaven, is there?", the answer is no. There isn't. "God wants all to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:3-4)

If the question is more specific about the "technical application" of the word "predestined"....The answer is that I'm not positive at the moment and would have to go look that up...

Greg

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Thanks Greg! I just see the idea of even passive "overlooking" of those who are not predestined somewhat unbecoming of a God Who is omnipotent and perfectly loving. I suppose the Catholic belief that all are given prevenient Grace (right?) but can choose for or against that Grace would suggest that God doesn't overlook anyone, and most certainly I don't think God deliberately damns people.Pax

 

[ps139]

Hi Robbie,

Good question!

There are actually 2 schools of thought on this issue within Catholicism: Thomist and Molinist.

Check these links for some info:
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM

They are full of theologically complex language, and it took me forever to read through the second one.

 

[ps139]

and most certainly I don't think God deliberately damns people.

This idea, called double predestination, is completely rejected by Catholic theology.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

This idea, called double predestination, is completely rejected by Catholic theology.

Indeed...elsewhere on OBOB someone posted an article that spoke about Calvinism and also the two schools of thought you mentioned (though more briefly than I would've liked--thanks for the links! )...however, to me, if God is omnipotent and deliberately passes over people then it's almost the same thing...but I suppose He could pass over thos whom He knows would reject Him anyway...my head hurts Is Molinism the same thing as Arminianism in Protestant circles?

Pax

 

[ps139]

however, to me, if God is omnipotent and deliberately passes over people then it's almost the same thing...but I suppose He could pass over thos whom He knows would reject Him anyway...

I understand what you mean by "the same thing." That is why some Calvinists will accept double predestination without batting an eye. Others have told me that position is "hyper-Calvinism."

But the difference is this: We believe EVERYONE has a chance at salvation. For God to positively destine someone to hell would be to not give them a chance. This is the subtle difference between double predestination and "passing over." I cannot see how double predestination gives those predestined to hell a chance at being saved.

my head hurts

Trying to think from a perspective where time does not exist can do that to you .

Is Molinism the same thing as Arminianism in Protestant circles?

It is much closer to Arminianism than Calvinism, but there probably are some differences. I would guess that most Arminian Protestants who converted to Catholicism would accept the Molinist view, while those who converted from a Calvinist-based theology would most likely accept the Thomist position.

For me, this stuff gives me headaches. I just try to keep it simple and follow the 2 greatest commandments.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ps139 again. ​

Thanks!

For me, this stuff gives me headaches. I just try to keep it simple and follow the 2 greatest commandments.

Good advice!

Pax!
Rob

 

[Benedicta00]

What is the Catholic position on predestination in easy to understand laymen's terms?

That if your are saved it is by the gift of God, if you are damned it is by your sin and you lack of contrition for those sins.

That is pretty much the long and short of it, Catholic theology does not officially teach any one theory on it, it does however tell us officially what it is not.

We reject that God would actively chose souls to be saved and actively chose souls to be damned.

God by the cross of Jesus Christ draws men to himself and we have the free will to follow and be saved or to reject and be damned.

Those who are saved are the elect- those who are dmned are the reprobates and yes, God knows right now who is who, we do not.

What we have are signs of the elect, that by these signs it may reveal what road we are on, but we stil do not know the state of another souls before God.


Signs of the elect are devotion to Mary, the mother of God, and to the crucified lord, signs of the damned are hardness of heart and a repudiation of the catholic faith and hatred of the Blessed mother, but again these are examples, not to be taken literally, we do not know really what is in a person's heart, anyone can change in their last moment for the better or worse.

 

[tigersnare]

What we have are signs of the elect, that by these signs it may reveal what road we are on, but we stil do not know the state of another souls before God.


Signs of the elect are devotion to Mary, the mother of God, and to the crucified lord, signs of the damned are hardness of heart and a repudiation of the catholic faith and hatred of the Blessed mother, but again these are examples, not to be taken literally, we do not know really what is in a person's heart, anyone can change in their last moment for the better or worse.

Is this an official Catholic stance? (signs of election based on devotion or hatred of Mary????)

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Is this an official Catholic stance? (signs of election based on devotion or hatred of Mary????)

No...I believe Michelle was saying that she personally thinks that our attitude towards Mary is indicative of our attitude towards Christ because they have one and the same purpose by virtue of Mary's total submission to Christ and because Mary is the mother of Christ.

The Church doesn't officially say this but if you take a look at the Church's teaching:

Devotion to Mary can lead us to God
Mary's whole purpose in life is bringing God to us
Respect for Mary should be practiced by all Christians

...therefore it is likely that those who follow Christ well will be devoted to His holy mother and love her as He does.

pax

 

[anawim]

What is the Catholic position on predestination in easy to understand laymen's terms?

Predestination and "laymen's terms" might be considered an oxymoron.

In addition to the link to Dave Armstrongs link, also check out James Akin's article, "A Tiptoe though TULIP": http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

 

[Ave Maria]

Thanks guys.