Predestination

[QuagDabPeg]

Do Presbyterians believe in Predestination? If so, can someone please explain it to me? I've never been able to quite wrap my mind around it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Three views on Predestination

The real question in not whether or not Christians should believe in predestination—the Bible clearly teaches predestination. The real question is this: whom did God predestine to eternal life, and (even more importantly) why did God choose those He predestined?

1. The optimistic view: God has predestined everybody to eternal life. Satan has predestined everybody to eternal death. God is for you, the Devil is against you—you have to cast the tie-breaker. The problem with this view is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible's view of predestination. The Bible clearly states that not everyone is predestined, but only those who will eventually believe and enjoy eternal life. Christians are frequently called the elect, as opposed to the non-elect, and are said to be the chosen ones (see Rom 8:33; 11:7; 1 Cor 1:27-29; Col 3:12; 2 Tim 2:10; *** 1:1; 1 Pe 2:8-9)—God has not chosen everyone. God has chosen some for eternal life and rejected others. But on what basis has God chosen some?

2. The Arminian view: God has predestined some to eternal life because He saw in advance that such persons would cooperate with the Holy Spirit and believe by their own free will. God gives everyone an equal amount of grace, and those willing to take it are saved. God chose us because we were going to choose Him.

3. The Reformed (Calvinist) view: God predestined some to eternal life, not because He saw that they would have believed on their own (They wouldn’t have!), but because of His own good pleasure. God chose us despite our rejection of Him, not because we would be cooperative. God chose to change our hearts, and he has done so and will continue to do so until all of his elect are gathered.

Calvinists and Arminians agree that only some are elect, and that those who are elect will come to faith and believe until the end (if, in fact, they are elect). And everyone agrees that those who turn from sin to follow Christ are saved. The question is this: On what basis did God predestine them? Did God predestine some because He knew they would believe of their own free will, or did He predestine without regard to human choices? Was God's choice based on our choice, or is our choice itself as a result of God's choice?


http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson1.htm

 

[cygnusx1]

cont ..........


The Five Points of Calvinism

In 1610, a group of the followers of James Arminius, a Dutch professor, presented a list of five grievances to the Dutch Parliament. Imbued with the humanism then arising within Europe, these “Arminians” were not pleased with the direction the Protestant Reformation had taken—objecting particularly to the doctrine of predestination as the Reformers (Luther, Calvin) had taught it. After eight years of biblical study and reflection, however, the Reformation churches meeting at Dort rejected the five Arminian objections as unbiblical. Their response followed the five Arminian objections, and has been passed down to us as the “Five Points” of Calvinism, known for its acronym, TULIP:

Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the saints. There are better titles for each of these doctrines—and this class will not deal with the extent of the atonement (that will have to be dealt with later). The two theological systems may be compared as follows:

​

The name “Five Point of Calvinism” is a little misleading, of course. Calvinist churches teach more than five points—the vision is to teach the whole counsel of God! These particular five points were simply the five under fire in the seventeenth century. One might suggest that these are five of the hundred or so points of biblical Christianity. Yet the one great point behind all five points is the supreme point that salvation is of the Lord, from beginning to end. God is God, and he does as he pleases. And if he has chosen to give us salvation, we’re going to make sure that we give all the glory for it to him, not to ourselves. Predestination is not just a Presbyterian thing. As the nineteenth century English Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon exclaimed, “I love to preach the strong old doctrines nicknamed Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus.”

http://christianstudy.homestead.com...ion/lesson1.htm

 

[QuagDabPeg]

In some ways it makes sense, especially if you think logically - if God knows everything, then He knows who's going to heaven. If he doesn't then He isn't all-powerful. But at the same time, how could a loving God create someone just to send him to hell? We all accept that God creates us, right? So if He loves everyone as the bible says, how could He make someone and then predestin them to hell?

 

[cygnusx1]

In some ways it makes sense, especially if you think logically - if God knows everything, then He knows who's going to heaven. If he doesn't then He isn't all-powerful. But at the same time, how could a loving God create someone just to send him to hell? We all accept that God creates us, right? So if He loves everyone as the bible says, how could He make someone and then predestin them to hell?

I think the problem only arises when it is put over in a simplistic way

"how could a loving God create someone just to send him to hell ? "

It is never as simple as that !

Where is the bit about God's longsuferring ?
Where is the part of the story about God's goodness and love to the world?
Where is the bit about men resisting the Holy Spirit ?
Where is the bit about men prefering darkness rather than light ?
Where is the bit about Adam sinning and plunging mankind into a war with God?

etc etc etc ............. I could go on like this for days , suffice it to say most will not slow down enough and consider the bigger picture.

I hope you take another look at God's patience , kindness and rejected Son , maybe just maybe you will see something more than "God just made men for hell"

Greetings Cygnus

 

[QuagDabPeg]

I'm not saying he didn't do wonderful things for humanity, but why even be born if you are predestined to hell? How do I know I'm not predestined to hell? It's scary.

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm not saying he didn't do wonderful things for humanity, but why even be born if you are predestined to hell? How do I know I'm not predestined to hell? It's scary.

We are not meant to go sticking our noses into God's secrets , He may have many many reasons , I have tried to give a more balanced approach , our job is to obey God's revealed will , His commandments and leave the secret things to Him, please remember , "His ways are past finding out" ......... all we can know is what is revealed.

Greetings Cygnus

 

[cygnusx1]

I do believe that one of the best things ever written on this very subject is by John Calvin himself

Try and get this book perhaps for Christmas , and see how the arguement goes , here is the book and please look at the web page for a review .



"Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God"

Excellent Translation of a Primary Work, August 31, 2000
Reviewer:T. B. Vick "Learn 2 Discern" (The Lone Star State) - See all my reviews
This work is a translated version of Calvin's response to Albert Pighius regarding the issue of the eternal predestination of God. Calvin deals with the historical proof (i.e. other theologians/writers prior to Calvin) of the doctrine of predestination as well as the biblical proof. The last section of the book is simply Calvin responding to the claims/arguments of Pighius regarding the issue at hand. This book is crucial to the overall debate between the Calvinist and the Arminian. Therefore, if you are researching the issues and miss this book then you have missed one of the best primary sources from Calvin himself. Another good reason to purchase and read this book is to find out what Calvin really espoused. All too often people assume Calvin espoused certain things which he in fact never espoused because they read secondary sources written ABOUT Calvin's view. Thus, it is crucial to read the primary sources. Another book that works well with this text is titled "The Bondage and Liberation of the Will" by John Calvin (ISBN - 0-85364-718-6) which is also available for a good price here at Amazon. However, don't miss this one in your research!




Greetings Cygnus

 

[QuagDabPeg]

But how do you know if you're predestined to hell? If I'm predestined to hell does that mean no matter how much I try to love god and be a good christian i will fail and go to hell anyway?

 

[cygnusx1]

But how do you know if you're predestined to hell? If I'm predestined to hell does that mean no matter how much I try to love god and be a good christian i will fail and go to hell anyway?

No , that is a vain and fatalistic idea (usually put about by those who hate the Reformed Faith) ........

There is a parallel here .
A Mother may know for certain she is the Mother of a child , she gave birth , but a Father cannot be 100% sure ...
Therefore there is , setting aside DNA testing , few tests that can be done to ascertain if you are your Fathers natural child.

But character traits usually show through , this is the arguement of 1 John and also Jesus in John's Gospel.

The gates of heaven are not narrow , although the way there is , on the contrary God's arms are indeed open to ALL !

 

[QuagDabPeg]

No , that is a vain and fatalistic idea (usually put about by those who hate the Reformed Faith) ........

There is a parallel here .
A Mother may know for certain she is the Mother of a child , she gave birth , but a Father cannot be 100% sure ...
Therefore there is , setting aside DNA testing , few tests that can be done to ascertain if you are your Fathers natural child.

But character traits usually show through , this is the arguement of 1 John and also Jesus in John's Gospel.

The gates of heaven are not narrow , although the way there is , on the contrary God's arms are indeed open to ALL !

It's scary though.....

So in this tradition would you never claim to be saved because you don't really know if maybe you're actually destined to hell?

 

[cygnusx1]

It's scary though.....

So in this tradition would you never claim to be saved because you don't really know if maybe you're actually destined to hell?

Hi QuagDabPeg
we are called upon by God to use self examination , nothing wrong with that Doctors ask it all the time
What are we looking for ?
Christ-like attributes and the fruit of the Spirit , we are assured that if we take time to self-test our calling and Election we will never fall.

Assurance is not something that can be assumed without evidence , but it should be the normal Christian experience , after all what is faith without experience/works ? Empty proffesion that will result in Hebrews 6 Apostacy..... but better things are expected and assured us if we persevere to the end .

 

[bliz]

But how do you know if you're predestined to hell? If I'm predestined to hell does that mean no matter how much I try to love god and be a good christian i will fail and go to hell anyway?

If you are predestined to hell, you are not going to try and love God.
People sometimes worry that they have committed the unpardonable sin. The answer is similiar: if you worry about having done it, you have not done it.

I cannot answer all the questions about all of mankind. Like you, I can't wrap my head around it! I finially gave up trying and focused on myself. That much I can deal with and that much I am responsible for.

 

[cygnusx1]

If you are predestined to hell, you are not going to try and love God.
People sometimes worry that they have committed the unpardonable sin. The answer is similiar: if you worry about having done it, you have not done it.

I cannot answer all the questions about all of mankind. Like you, I can't wrap my head around it! I finially gave up trying and focused on myself. That much I can deal with and that much I am responsible for.

I don't think it is possible to know you are "predestined to Hell" , I mean assurance of Election is a gift granted by God but I cannot see Him granting assurance of being passed over in the Decree of Election , for what would be the point ?
In fact it would go against the Bibles emphasis on Human responsibility , personal accountability and obedience.

Consider an illustration , Jesus knew all along that Judas was going to betray Him, yet at the last supper , Jesus announces "one of you is going to betray me" then all the disciples are confused and begin self searching even asking Jesus "is it I lord" ? But Jesus doesn't name names .... He merely indicates to John "the one who dips his bread with me shall be the one" ....... Judas could never say .."I had no choice , it wasn't my fault " because Jesus would merely say how did you know anything except God's love and provision for you ?

So I conclude you can never know if you are non-elect , but with God's Grace you can know if you are!

Greetings
Cygnus