Predestination- What does it mean?

[Tyler35]

Hello Brothers and Sisters.

Curious, prior to Calvin’s double predestination theology, what did the church believe predestination meant?

 

[Fervent]

It's long been a debated topic, but generally the dominant view in the west was thomism.

 

[anetazo]

Romans chapter 8 and ephesians chapter 1. Its talking about Gods Elect.
The Election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. The Election have holy spirit.
God judged the Election in the first earth age. Everyone else will appear before judgement seat of christ on judgement day.
Jeremiah chapter 4 and revelation chapter 12:4. In the first earth age, one third of God's children followed satan in Rebellion against God.
Satan wanted the Mercy seat. To be king and messiah.
Gods Elect stood against satan and the rebellion. God judged His Election. They are predestined to reign with Jesus during the millennium.
Satan, Ezekiel chapter 28, is going into lake of fire.
John chapter 3, every one must be born one time in the flesh. God is testing the two thirds. To see if they will follow satan or Jesus. Were in the flesh, this is the second earth age. Get the picture.
CHRISTOS in Greek means = Messiah
CHACIYD in Greek means = saint, godly man/woman.
APARCHE in Greek means = first fruits
NUWM in Hebrew = slumber.
HAGIASMOS in Greek means = Sanctification.
PROGINOSKO in Greek means = fore know, ordain to know beforehand.
PROORIZO in Greek means = Predestinate.
OMNAH in Hebrew means = Pillar.
EKLEGOMAI in Greek means = Election, chosen.
EKLETOS in Greek means = divine Selection, Elect.
KURIAKOS in Greek means = Jesus.
Ezekiel chapter 44 . The Zadok are the election, the first fruits, the just, the saints.
The Elect destiny is to be priests in Jesus temple during the millennium, revelation chapter 20 and Ezekiel chapter 44 to document .
Why the millennium??
Because the one third worshipped antichrist in the flesh. They have to tested again at end of millennium by satan.
Do you understand.??
God is testing the one third. They have free will to choose to follow satan or Jesus.
God won't force anyone to love Him and worship Him.
The millennium is to WEED out those unfit for eternal life. Get the picture.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello Brothers and Sisters.

Curious, prior to Calvin’s double predestination theology, what did the church believe predestination meant?

Only Augustine taught the theology of Double Predestination. Prior to this teaching he was like other early fathers who believed that all people have the free will to accept or reject grace. He also taught that God loves all people equally and wants everyone to be saved. Some scholars belive he fell back into his earlier belief of Manichaeism causing him to teach DP by mixing the two religions.
Blessings.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Only Augustine taught the theology of Double Predestination. Prior to this teaching he was like other early fathers who believed that all people have the free will to accept or reject grace. He also taught that God loves all people equally and wants everyone to be saved. Some scholars belive he fell back into his earlier belief of Manichaeism causing him to teach DP by mixing the two religions.
Blessings.

Augustine didn't teach double predestination.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

"Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God's gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glories may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another —"His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out." [Romans 11:33] For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, "O man, who are you that repliest against God?" [Romans 9:20] than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous." - St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I, Ch. 13

Augustine does not locate the lack of being delivered (aka a lack of faith and lack of salvation) in God's decree, but in man himself.

God predestines and gives faith, this is the comfort to those who believe; it is not however true that those who do not believe do not believe because God has decided that they should not believe.

Lutherans would call this the Crux Theologorum, the "Theologian's Cross"; the question of "why some and not others?" Some don't believe because they refuse and resist and reject it. Yet salvation is not because some, by some merit or glory of themselves, did accept it; God is the author and giver of faith, so that the one who believes cannot glory in himself, but can only praise and thank God who has given Him the gift. And yet the one who does not believe cannot blame God, but only has themselves to blame.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BrotherJJ]

Hello Brothers and Sisters.

Curious, prior to Calvin’s double predestination theology, what did the church believe predestination meant?

OP Question: Predestination- What does it mean?

Predestination is God's foreordained plan with a path to get there.

Eph written to believers:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, """to the saints which are at Ephesus""", and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:5 """Having predestinated us""" unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(MY NOTE: Predestined US/BELIEVERS to be ADOPTED CHILDREN by Jesus Christ to himself)

 

[Der Alte]

Romans chapter 8 and ephesians chapter 1. Its talking about Gods Elect.
The Election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. The Election have holy spirit.
God judged the Election in the first earth age. Everyone else will appear before judgement seat of christ on judgement day.
Jeremiah chapter 4 and revelation chapter 12:4. In the first earth age, one third of God's children followed satan in Rebellion against God.
Satan wanted the Mercy seat. To be king and messiah.
Gods Elect stood against satan and the rebellion. God judged His Election. They are predestined to reign with Jesus during the millennium.
Satan, Ezekiel chapter 28, is going into lake of fire.
John chapter 3, every one must be born one time in the flesh. God is testing the two thirds. To see if they will follow satan or Jesus. Were in the flesh, this is the second earth age. Get the picture.
CHRISTOS in Greek means = Messiah
CHACIYD in Greek means = saint, godly man/woman.
APARCHE in Greek means = first fruits
NUWM in Hebrew = slumber.
HAGIASMOS in Greek means = Sanctification.
PROGINOSKO in Greek means = fore know, ordain to know beforehand.
PROORIZO in Greek means = Predestinate.
OMNAH in Hebrew means = Pillar.
EKLEGOMAI in Greek means = Election, chosen.
EKLETOS in Greek means = divine Selection, Elect.
KURIAKOS in Greek means = Jesus.
Ezekiel chapter 44 . The Zadok are the election, the first fruits, the just, the saints.
The Elect destiny is to be priests in Jesus temple during the millennium, revelation chapter 20 and Ezekiel chapter 44 to document .
Why the millennium??
Because the one third worshipped antichrist in the flesh. They have to tested again at end of millennium by satan.
Do you understand.??
God is testing the one third. They have free will to choose to follow satan or Jesus.
God won't force anyone to love Him and worship Him.
The millennium is to WEED out those unfit for eternal life. Get the picture.

προορίζω 1 aor. προώρισα, pass. προωρίσθην (Demosth. 31, 4 codd.; Heliod. 7, 24, 4; TestSol 12:3; Sopater Rhet. [V A.D.]: Rhet. Gr. V p. 152, 20; var. pap fr. VI A.D. in non-Christian usage) decide upon beforehand, predetermine, of God (Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 5]) τινά someone Ro 8:30. Foll. by acc. w. inf. Ac 4:28. W. final εἰς foll.: τὶ someth. 1 Cor 2:7; τινά someone Eph 1:5. τινά τι someone as someth., to be someth. Ro 8:29. Pass. w. inf. foll. IEph ins Foll. by εἰς τὸ εἶναι Eph 1:11 (12).—RLiechtenhan, D. göttl. Vorherbestimmung bei Pls u. in d. posidonianischen Philosophie 1922; HBraun, Qumran u. d. NT II, ’66, 243–50. S. also προγινώσκω.—DELG s.v. ὅρος. TW.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 873.

 

[Tyler35]

OP Question: Predestination- What does it mean?

Predestination is God's foreordained plan with a path to get there.

Eph written to believers:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, """to the saints which are at Ephesus""", and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:5 """Having predestinated us""" unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(MY NOTE: Predestined US/BELIEVERS to be ADOPTED CHILDREN by Jesus Christ to himself)

Thank you @BrotherJJ. Curious do you know what the early Church considered predestination to mean?

 

[BrotherJJ]

Thank you @BrotherJJ. Curious do you know what the early Church considered predestination to mean?

I cited Ephesians, I don't believe we can get any earlier then that.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hello Brothers and Sisters.

Curious, prior to Calvin’s double predestination theology, what did the church believe predestination meant?

It really depends on how far you go back. The Earliest Church Fathers spoke of it stating that "knowing things beforehand does not negate man's free will".

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) - First Apology

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

They also spoke of foreknowledge as not being fixed by God, not God's doing. Those forknown to be unrighteous could repent if they desired it.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

I have other quotes from the Earliest Church Fathers at A comprehensive look at Predestination vs free will

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Augustine didn't teach double predestination.

-CryptoLutheran

It has been confirmed by some scholars that he did and that John Calvin based his teachings on this view. His published views seem to indicate DP but maybe you can shed light on a different interpretation? Also if he didn't, then who did ?

• "God has not created all men with equal destinies, but has assigned some to eternal life, others to eternal punishment." (The City of God, Book 19, Chapter 12)
• "God has predestined some men to eternal life, and others to eternal death." (On the Predestination of the Saints, Chapter 2)
• "There are two kinds of predestination: one of the elect to eternal life, and the other of the reprobate to eternal death." (On the Gift of Perseverance, Chapter 14)
• "It is not because they are good that they are elected, but they are elected in order to be good." (Letter 186, 19)

 

[Der Alte]

It has been confirmed by some scholars that he did and that John Calvin based his teachings on this view. His published views seem to indicate DP but maybe you can shed light on a different interpretation? Also if he didn't, then who did ?

• "God has not created all men with equal destinies, but has assigned some to eternal life, others to eternal punishment." (The City of God, Book 19, Chapter 12)
• "God has predestined some men to eternal life, and others to eternal death." (On the Predestination of the Saints, Chapter 2)
• "There are two kinds of predestination: one of the elect to eternal life, and the other of the reprobate to eternal death." (On the Gift of Perseverance, Chapter 14)
• "It is not because they are good that they are elected, but they are elected in order to be good." (Letter 186, 19)

Unfortunately the writings of "scholars" which are not supported by any scripture are no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall. I only need one vs. to support this.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

It does not say whosoever [of the chosen] believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It has been confirmed by some scholars that he did and that John Calvin based his teachings on this view. His published views seem to indicate DP but maybe you can shed light on a different interpretation? Also if he didn't, then who did ?

• "God has not created all men with equal destinies, but has assigned some to eternal life, others to eternal punishment." (The City of God, Book 19, Chapter 12)
• "God has predestined some men to eternal life, and others to eternal death." (On the Predestination of the Saints, Chapter 2)
• "There are two kinds of predestination: one of the elect to eternal life, and the other of the reprobate to eternal death." (On the Gift of Perseverance, Chapter 14)
• "It is not because they are good that they are elected, but they are elected in order to be good." (Letter 186, 19)

Here's a brief commentary from Lutheran pastor Jordan Cooper who addresses the subject and provides some important nuance and context:

Augustine is not interested in talking about the relationship of God's sovereignty and human will, as becomes a focus among some Reformed thinkers much later; Augustine is chiefly interested in addressing the Pelagian heresy and thus places the focus on God's grace; so that for Augustine predestination is not about God making a sovereign decree to save some and not others (whether in the Infralapsarian or Supralapsarian sense). Given the backdrop of the Pelagian controversy Augustine's interest is on the total and unequivocal essential importance of God's grace. Man's will is insufficient to bring him to salvation not because of God's sovereign decree, but because of human weakness through the Fall aka Original Sin, and thus it is impossible for a person to come to God or to be righteous before God through a pure and free human act of obedience (such as Pelagius taught). Thus for Augustine salvation only happens because God, out of His love and grace gives the gift of faith and salvation, and therefore apart from the grace of God, and the saving passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus it is impossible for a person to be saved.

Both Luther and Calvin leaned hard into Augustine, but they both came to radically different views on the subject of predestination and election. And, of course, Roman Catholicism is also tremendously Augustinian, but has a radically different view than either Luther or Calvin.

This means that it is possible for Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Calvinists to all find material in Augustine's works. And the work of interpreting Augustine can become just as complex as any complex treatment of biblical exegesis.

As a Lutheran I don't have a problem admitting my Lutheran bias, and that, therefore I do read Augustine as a Lutheran. But from an objective stand point it would be wrong to claim Augustine was himself Lutheran--just as it would be wrong to claim Augustine was a Calvinist or even Roman Catholic (in the context of late medieval/early modern Reformation/Counter-Reformation debates). Augustine's work, and his arguments, involve a particular context. To a certain degree claiming Augustine exclusively by any party involves anachronism.

Augustine said things that Lutherans use to support our view.
Augustine said things that Calvinists use to support their view.
Augustine said things that Roman Catholics use to support their view.

But Augustine is before the divisions of these three that occurred in the 16th century, he is writing in the context of Late Antiquity, not the Late Middle Ages/Early Modern Period. Augustine is not writing in the context of the particular historical and ecclesiastical issues of the 16th century, but of the late 4th and early 5th centuries. Augustine's chief ideological/theological nemeses are the Arian and Pelagian heresies, and also the Manichean religion which he was a member of for a time.

Augustine is known as the Doctor of Grace because God's grace is the the through-line of nearly everything he wrote. We see it from his commentaries and theological treatises, and even in his personal biography, the Confessions, where he recognizes in himself the deep darkness of sin and his own need for the Savior who graciously meets him, a sinner, in grace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Here's a brief commentary from Lutheran pastor Jordan Cooper who addresses the subject and provides some important nuance and context:

Augustine is not interested in talking about the relationship of God's sovereignty and human will, as becomes a focus among some Reformed thinkers much later; Augustine is chiefly interested in addressing the Pelagian heresy and thus places the focus on God's grace; so that for Augustine predestination is not about God making a sovereign decree to save some and not others (whether in the Infralapsarian or Supralapsarian sense). Given the backdrop of the Pelagian controversy Augustine's interest is on the total and unequivocal essential importance of God's grace. Man's will is insufficient to bring him to salvation not because of God's sovereign decree, but because of human weakness through the Fall aka Original Sin, and thus it is impossible for a person to come to God or to be righteous before God through a pure and free human act of obedience (such as Pelagius taught). Thus for Augustine salvation only happens because God, out of His love and grace gives the gift of faith and salvation, and therefore apart from the grace of God, and the saving passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus it is impossible for a person to be saved.

Both Luther and Calvin leaned hard into Augustine, but they both came to radically different views on the subject of predestination and election. And, of course, Roman Catholicism is also tremendously Augustinian, but has a radically different view than either Luther or Calvin.

This means that it is possible for Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Calvinists to all find material in Augustine's works. And the work of interpreting Augustine can become just as complex as any complex treatment of biblical exegesis.

As a Lutheran I don't have a problem admitting my Lutheran bias, and that, therefore I do read Augustine as a Lutheran. But from an objective stand point it would be wrong to claim Augustine was himself Lutheran--just as it would be wrong to claim Augustine was a Calvinist or even Roman Catholic (in the context of late medieval/early modern Reformation/Counter-Reformation debates). Augustine's work, and his arguments, involve a particular context. To a certain degree claiming Augustine exclusively by any party involves anachronism.

Augustine said things that Lutherans use to support our view.
Augustine said things that Calvinists use to support their view.
Augustine said things that Roman Catholics use to support their view.

But Augustine is before the visions of these three that occurred in the 16th century, he is writing in the context of Late Antiquity, not the Late Middle Ages/Early Modern Period. Augustine is not writing in the context of the particular historical and ecclesiastical issues of the 16th century, but of the late 4th and early 5th centuries. Augustine's chief ideological/theological nemeses are the Arian and Pelagian heresies, and also the Manichean religion which he was a member of for a time.

Augustine is known as the Doctor of Grace because God's grace is the the through-line of nearly everything he wrote. We see it from his commentaries and theological treatises, and even in his personal biography, the Confessions, where he recognizes in himself the deep darkness of sin and his own need for the Savior who graciously meets him, a sinner, in grace.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks!

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Augustine said things that Lutherans use to support our view.
Augustine said things that Calvinists use to support their view.
Augustine said things that Roman Catholics use to support their view.

Or as John Warwick Montgomery once said, "There is enough good in Augustine that Lutherans, Calvinists and Roman Catholics can call him their own."

 

[bling]

Predestine can mean: "God predestined to save all those who will accept His Love as pure undeserved charity, without have specific names in mind.

 

[Fervent]

Augustine is not interested in talking about the relationship of God's sovereignty and human will, as becomes a focus among some Reformed thinkers much later; Augustine is chiefly interested in addressing the Pelagian heresy and thus places the focus on God's grace; so that for Augustine predestination is not about God making a sovereign decree to save some and not others (whether in the Infralapsarian or Supralapsarian sense).

It's important to note that Pelagius was declared orthodox every time he defended himself, and it was only when his opponents characterized his position without him having the opportunity to give his own defense that their polemics were accepted and his position was declared heretical. This is at least partly because Augustine did teach a strong and unconditional election(which inevitably requires double predestination), because his theology regarding original sin and human fallenness demanded that to be the case.

 

[Tyler35]

It's important to note that Pelagius was declared orthodox every time he defended himself, and it was only when his opponents characterized his position without him having the opportunity to give his own defense that their polemics were accepted and his position was declared heretical. This is at least partly because Augustine did teach a strong and unconditional election(which inevitably requires double predestination), because his theology regarding original sin and human fallenness demanded that to be the case.

Thank you @Fervent. Curious what your beliefs are on the matter? Do you believe in Augustine’s strong predestination theology? I couldn’t fully tell from your answer if you were in agreement with him or not.

 

[Fervent]

Thank you @Fervent. Curious what your beliefs are on the matter? Do you believe in Augustine’s strong predestination theology? I couldn’t fully tell from your answer if you were in agreement with him or not.

No, I don't. I have a less pessimistic view of the fall, more in line with John Cassian than Augustine, so I see no necessity for unconditional election. I believe that when the Scriptures speak of predestination they are referring not to an individual selection of believers, but the predestined selection of Christ as the means to salvation and so I view it as a corporate election. Christ is the Elect, and we become co-inheritors when we repent and believe the gospel.