Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
All judgment of men is based on their actions.

But their actions are based on God granting them grace. If God has not granted them grace then they cannot be grafted back in. So the determining factor is not their actions but God’s action according to Calvinism. Not to mention that the Gentiles who were grafted in by God can be cut off. Why would He graft people in according to His foreknowledge then cut them off? Did God grant these Gentiles grace then revoke it? If so then He is responsible for their actions.

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2021

HosannaHM said:
Does anyone come to a thread like this to actually grow or does everyone just like to argue?

I’m reflecting on my own motives too.

I hope that we come to share evidence of our beliefs from the scriptures to help one another see our perspective.

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
You don’t see that your saying that God chose them twice? He chose them before the foundation of the world then He chose them again after they were alive?

Where do you get that?

Why would He choose people He’s already chosen?

I don't know, why would he?
He doesn't. Why do you keep saying that he does?

The choice was already made.

Agreed. . .so why do you have him making it again?

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
Where do you get that?
I don't know, why would he?
He doesn't. Why do you keep saying that he does?
Agreed. . .so why do you have him making it again?

The scriptures says that God chose them according to His foreknowledge. Your saying that He chose them according to His choice before creation. Your saying that His foreknowledge was His choosing them before creation. So this is what your saying. God chose them according to His choosing them before creation. That’s what your telling me.

Bible Highlighter · May 7, 2021

HosannaHM said:
That response was kind of robotic.
Let’s try this route: I’m willing to admit I could be wrong about some things- are you?

Yes, I was wrong on many things over the years. Here is thread on that.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

But Calvinism is not one of them, friend.
There are just certain truths in the Bible that are obvious that refute unbiblical beliefs. I am so certain about it, I would be willing to die for such a truth.

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
But their actions are based on God granting them grace. If God has not granted them grace then they cannot be grafted back in.

Does Paul know which God has done. . .so how would you have him state it?
There is only one way to know and one way to state it, based on their actions.

So the determining factor is not their actions but God’s action according to Calvinism.

Right. But men's actions are the revealing factor showing what God has done, rebirth or not, and therefore their actions reveal their destiny, heaven or not.

Not to mention that the Gentiles who were grafted in by God can be cut off. Why would He graft people in according to His foreknowledge then cut them off?

You think God was caught by surprise when he made Israel his people, and they then rejected his Messiah, having him crucified?
So God had to go to Plan B?

You think that all happened apart from God's will?

Does God consider everyone his son just because he has been baptized, if his lifestyle is consistent disobedience and unbelief?
Being in the "community of God's people" does not make you a son of God, and you are subject to "cutting off" if you are not his son.
They were grafted in as God's people (the church, assembly in the desert, Acts 7:38) and then cut off when they rejected the Messiah.
Therefore, the Gentiles were made God's people, the church (called-out assembly).

Did God grant these Gentiles grace then revoke it?

What grace?
Does God grant grace to someone just because he occupies a pew at church?

Grace is not a reward. Grace saves. If your actions reveal you are not saved, you have been given no grace and, therefore, no grace is revoked.

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
I hope that we come to share evidence of our beliefs from the scriptures to help one another see our perspective.

Hopefully, some who read benefit from the argumentative clarifications of the Scriptures.

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
The scriptures says that God chose them according to His foreknowledge. Your saying that He chose them according to His choice before creation.

That is his foreknowledge.

saying that His foreknowledge was His choosing them before creation. So this is what your saying. God chose them according to His choosing them before creation. That’s what your telling me.

God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made before they were created (foreknowledge).
God executed/accomplished his foreknowledge (previous choice and purpose).

It has been stated clearly enough for your understanding.
This is not about lack of understanding.

Butterball1 · May 8, 2021

HosannaHM said:
Brother, that's not what scripture teaches about depravity and regeneration (Ephesians 2:1,2 / John 3:8 / 1 Peter 1:3). I think your premise of culpability is blinding to you to the plain reading of scripture. I'm certain I have faulty premises too, and I pray for God to reveal them to me. God is not a man, nor does He think like a man. His thoughts are higher. I don't have to defend or make excuses for His character, and neither do you. His Word is enough. Does that make sense? I'm not forcing Calvinistic ideology into the scripture, I'm just seeking to understand the whole council of God. If we try to force free will to avoid God being responsible for wrath given to some, then we will operate on that premise to make it fit. We don't have to do that.

The Bible does not teach man is born totally depraved, that is strictly a man made idea. It is a Calvinistic idea that makes man a victim of sin, it has God unjustly condemning man for an innate inability man would be born with against his will and make God out to be a respecter of persons in choosing which men God will or will not "regenerate" to be saved from this depraved state.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
If God elects (forces) some to believe, then He by default is forcing others to be unsaved against their will or free will choice. That is not the God of the Bible. God gets angry at sin in the Bible. That would not make sense in light of Calvinism.

Bible Highlighter said:
No offense, but I believe Calvinism is about as silly as believing in flat Earth.
Would you read an article on the flat Earth?
I sure hope not.
Also, those guys back then also wrote in a way that is very difficult to understand.

If you can provide a more up to date belief in how UNconditional Election is not God forcing some to be saved and by default forcing others to not be saved. I mean, it is called UNconditional Election for a reason. According to Calvinism: There is no conditions within man that God would have chosen them to elect them.
Side Note:
This is not my first rodeo in discussing Calvinism, either.
I have been discussing it for about 10 years.
I have read many of their own statements online admitting this stuff to me.

One more time around the rodeo ring. . .with the "updated belief" you request.

God does not cause belief by external force applied to one's will.
God works within the hardened heart (disposition) softening (disposing) it to faith, causing it to recognize and receive divine truth.
The will then voluntarily and freely chooses to receive the gospel, no external force required or applied.

This has been explained more than once. . .it's not that hard to understand.
So update your false claim of God forcing the elect to believe.

But you are correct about the damned.
All mankind is born condemned (Romans 5:18), by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and God simply leaves some there.
He does his internal work of heart-softening and new-birth only in the elect.
And that is not forcing anyone to be not saved, that is leaving them in their personal preference and choice.
So update your false claim of God forcing anyone to be not saved.

There is nothing silly about the NT revelation of the will and sovereignty of God in election to salvation.
No offense, but flat earth applies more to the rejection of that NT revelation.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But then how do you deal with 2 Thessalonians 2:10? It says that those who perish are perishing because
THEY received not the love of the truth THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

might = may.

You apply Ezekiel 36:26-27 and John 6:44, just as Jonaitis stated.

There is no... MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism. But that's what my Bible says. I will stick with my Bible instead.

It's not about "might be saved," it's about refusing the love of the truth, which is the condition for salvation, which refusal is the result of the fallen nature with which they were born and which makes them objects of God's wrath (condemnation) (Ephesians 2:3; Romans 5:18).

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
This is dealing with the time during the Millennium. The context is Israel and their receiving of their land along with being in the New Covenant.

There is no "millennium" in the NT epistles.
There is "one thousand years" in the prophecy of Revelation, which is symbolic of the church age, during which time Ezekiel 36:26-27 is fulfilled.

The problem with your understanding of NT teaching is that you conform the NT to your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings, Numbers 12:8), rather than conforming your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles to NT authoritative teaching.

John 6:44 is saying that no man can come to GOD on their own terms. Meaning if they disobey God's Word or the Scriptures, then GOD is not going to abide in their life and they are not going to have a relationship with GOD in order to be guided by GOD.

John 6:45 is referring to the Jew who has HEARD and LEARNED of the Father (Suggesting that they have a relationship with GOD) so as to be guided by GOD to come to Jesus. They are guided or drawn by GOD to come to Jesus because they have a relationship with GOD the Father. Without this relationship, they cannot be drawn or guided by GOD.

It's that simple.

Having GOD in your life means you get the benefits (like being drawn, illuminated, etc.). How does one have GOD and or Jesus in their life? Jesus says if you keep my commandments, the Father and Jesus will make their home or abode in you (See: John 14:23). One of these commands is to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).

Does it make any sense for GOD to command you to believe in Him if GOD is the One who makes a person to believe? Why give us a commandment if it is GOD who ultimately forces us to believe? It makes no sense. God gives us commands because we have a free will choice to either obey His commands or disobey them. For if a Robot was programmed to do a certain function and yet I commanded the robot to do what it was already programmed to do, it would be kind of pointless.

So you don't believe in UNconditional Election?

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus said, “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).
In other words, Jesus basically said “repent or perish.”

How can the Elect ever be in danger of ever perishing?
How can the Non-Elect have the ability to repent?

renniks said:
And there's the rub. Under calvinist thinking, no one is really ever in danger of hell.
They are either irresistibly chosen for salvation or for damnation.

Not quite.
All mankind is born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), which condemnation is to damnation, and
are by nature (birth) objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
The only remedy for this sentence to damnation is belief in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice (i.e., not guilty).
All who do not apply this remedy are on their way to the execution of this sentence to damnation.

Hearing the gospel is how mankind learns these facts of "repent or perish," and decides whether to apply the remedy or not, and are thereby sorted out between the saved and the damned.
The elect will receive and believe it, the non-elect will reject it in unbelief, preferring instead their own mind, thought and will.

But the elect are no different than the non-elect, until God actually softens their hardened heart, thereby disposing them to receive the gospel. The elect aren't born with softened hearts, God softens them later in life, sometimes very late in life.
The elect must hear the gospel in order to receive it. So the gospel is preached to all, so that the (unknown) elect may hear and receive it, and the non-elect reject it.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18).

All mankind is condemned by Adam's guilt (Romans 5:18), and are by nature (birth) objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
God did not cause their unbelief, for which they are condemned, Adam did.
Adam is accountable for their not believing, God is not.

In justice, God owes the children of sinful, fallen Adam nothing and is not accountable for the squandering of their inheritance by Adam;
i.e., eternal life and a righteous nature (disposition), able to choose (moral power to do) all moral good.

If he chooses to restore it to some and not others, no one has a just claim of being denied anything he is owed.
On the contrary, God is to be praised for restoring any of it to anyone.
.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

d taylor said:
I do not have to deal with it that is during the tribulation.

Where do we find a "seven-year tribulation" in Scripture?

The tribulation is the church age, the time of trial (John 16:33, Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3, 8:35, 12:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, etc.).

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Points To Ponder said:
I do not disagree with that. I do not think predetermined prophesy implies that some are chosen for salvation and others are not. I also do not think that just because God knows what our choices are going to be that he eliminates free will from our life.

The one thing I'm very certain of is that this issue will not be resolved until the day of judgment.

There is nothing to resolve. . .God has no issue.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Judas was once a sheep (saved), and he lost his salvation.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying (Matthew 10:5) .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” (Matthew 10:16).

"As sheep in the midst of wolves" is a metaphor of danger, not a statement of salvation.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
No. We are not in the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25 gives us a glimpse of what the future Millennium will be like. Christ will live and reign physically a thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

Side Note:
Yes, it is called a New Heavens and New Earth, but this is not to be confused with the New Heavens and New Earth in Revelation because they do not sound even remotely the same.

In addition to all the other duplications in dispensationalism, we can now add two New Heavens and New Earth.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Jonaitis said:
Christ already reigns (Matthew 28:18), and Satan is already bound from deceiving the nations (Matthew 12:29). The thousand years represent the Church age, and we are living in it. You may agree to disagree, but this has been the historical position of the Church.

Until "dispensationalism" was created from whole cloth in the last couple of centuries, and disagreeing with authoritative NT teaching.

Clare73 · May 8, 2021

Navair2 said:
Yes, we will.
I agree.
The vail of the temple was rent in two at Christ's death to signify this.
However, the Jews as a nation even today, refuse to accept that the Law of Moses has been done away with in Christ...
That is why they continue in their blindness...until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

What we are seeing is the devil not being bound, still accusing the brethren, still sending forth his false teachers and still deceiving the nations about Jesus Christ.
He is still blinding the minds of men to the truth of the Gospel per 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

However, these are a mere fraction of what he can do when not bound. Don't underestimate the terrifying nature and power of evil.

I agree.
But you may wish to tell them that...

They still want to erect another temple, and they've already gathered all the instruments to do it:
The Temple Institute - Wikipedia
The Temple Institute of Jerusalem - Learn About the Temple Institute
Update on the Building of the Third Temple | Jewish Voice
The Temple Vessels Are Ready for the Rebuilding of Jerusalem's Third Temple | Messianic Bible

That said, I will limit any further replies to the subject of this thread, and a-millennialism, as I'm sure it has been discussed many times, can wait for those threads.

May God bless you sir.

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