Predestination vs Free Will

[Benedicta00]

Ummm, nope. So men are chosen because God knew that there was something good (their choice) in them? This does not work because nothing is good but God, so if God were not already in them they would not have the capability of choosing Him. Ever heard the verse "we love Him because He first loved us!"? That is the determining factor right their because God only loves His children, and He loved His children FIRST.

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

I totally agree but why would you think a person who, when God first loves them, responds to that love is incapable of doing that with out them having any real freedom to reject God's love? How does choice take away from God first loving them? The fact remains that either he who rejects or accepts is incapable of loving God if God does not love Him first.

We don’t believe that God chose us because we chose Him. We believe that God loved us first, chased after us until we came to believe and when we did, we realized by further grace of enlightenment that we are nothing with out Him, that we aren’t lovable because we are smart, funny, good looking ect, that we are lovable only because God loved us first while we were still sinners, that we get our loveableness from Him and not from our own talents because our talents are all gifts from God anyway.

Responding to God is only possible when he allows that of us by loving us first but responding to that grace also takes cooperating with that grace when he grants us the grace to love Him back.

 

[Patristic]

I view it more like He premoves us in our choices that he knows we will make.

I see it that God establishes the situations that will lead to our choices, and in those cases He knows perfectly well what choices will be made. It's still determinism, but it's not theological determinism.

 

[lands21]

THe Jews were God's chosen people of the OT, we Chrisitians are God's chosen people of the NT.

You can't take one Scripture, you have to take them all, and we have to choose to respond to His love for us.

I agree, we have to look at more then one verse, and I also agree we have to choose how we respond to his love for us. However, of salvation is pre-determined. God choose us.
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will,

Predestination:
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proorizo&#772;

Thayer Definition:

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

 

[Patristic]

Prohorizo is a tricky verb to translate because it appears infrequently in classical Greek literature. It's one usage in classical Greek is in Thucydides I believe, I'll have to double check on it to be sure, but I know it's in a historical text. Anyways, the usage of the verb is in relation to a man's house and how much it was worth because it had been appointed beforehand that the property was worth that much.

I think people get to hung up on this word and try to read more into it than is really there. God appointed beforehand that those who love and serve Him would have a glorious destiny in heaven. It's not the people who are predestined, but the plan and reward of salvation that was pre-appointed by God.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

God loves everybody. He has always loved us even when we were in sin, and those He foreknew would repent He predestined to be with Him in His Kingdom. You can't take one Scripture, you have to take them all, and we have to choose to respond to His love for us. If we don't His love doesn't stop but we will serve who we love, and that will determine where we spend eternity.

Unfortunately, this is a common lie taught by some churches. God does not love everyone, He loves HIS children. We can see this in the story of Jacob and Esau and also in the story of the many God destroyed in the OT.

Romans 9:
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This not only affirms God's purpose in Election, but also the fact that He does not love all, only those that He chooses. He has objects of wrath and objects of mercy, and this is for His purpose in bringing glory to Himself.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[Curt]

Heres some of what God has to say about freewill.
Exod 15:26
26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
(KJV)

Exod 19:5-6
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
(KJV)

Exod 20:6
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
(KJV)

Exod 23:22
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
(KJV)

Lev 1:3
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
(KJV)

Exod 19:5-6
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
(KJV)

Exod 20:6
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
(KJV)

Exod 23:22
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
(KJV)

Lev 1:3
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
(KJV)

Lev 19:5
5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.
(KJV)

Lev 22:19
19 Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats.
(KJV)

Lev 26:3-4
3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
(KJV)

Num 15:3
3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:
(KJV)

Deut 4:1-2
1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
(KJV)

Deut 4:40
40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.
(KJV)

Deut 5:29
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
(KJV)

Deut 11:13-14
13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
(KJV)

Deut 12:6
6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
(KJV)

Deut 12:28
28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.
(KJV)

 

[michael servetus]

Woah. I hope issues aren't sorted that quickly on these forums...
A couple questions?

What is predesitined in the verses you mentioned? Individuals? Peoples? Nations?
See, God predesitined the people of Isreal to be the saving nation of the world.
God chose the nation that would come from Jacob, and not the one from Esau. God chose the people of Israel to be the salvation of the world. There is predestination within Christianity, but it is of a people group, the church, the ressurected body of Christ, the bride. The church was predestined and elected according to the eternal purposes of God. Salvation now comes from the Church. But the chuch is a volutary organisation. WE CHOOSE wheather to become part of the predestined bride. We are the effective agents of christs grace within us. It is when we confess and belive that we speak into existance the "new creation" in our lives.

Christ will live forever. The question is wether we have chosen to be "in christ" when everything else is commited to flames.

Dude, it applies to everything!

 

[kel32]

I have searched the entire Bible, and I can't find the scripture where it says that to believe in predestination (or predetermination) is a sin. I also can't find the scripture where it says that not believing in those is a sin. ~peace~