Predestination vs. Free Will

Augustus McCrae said:

I know this is a very disputed topic, and I am sure it has been brought up countless times.

What I'm confused about is how Free Will fits into the area of God's omniscience. If God knows everything, he therefore knows everything that everyone is ever going to do, and he has always known it, even before anything except him was in existence. Is it that we have the freedom to choose, but God already knows what is going to happen? It would seem that if he already knows what will be, and he is the only force in existence at that time, is that or isn't that equal to him planning it?

If there is predestination, I certainly feel more sympathetic for many people throughout history. Take Judas for instance. He is toted as one of the most infamous villains in the Bible, but from the standpoint of predestination, he was only doing the job that God appointed for him to do (I mean, for Jesus to die and fulfill his plan of saving us, someone had to betray him so he could be killed). Then there's Pilate. He had a choice, set free a man and have a war on his hands that would get him executed; or kill the man to save the peace temporarily (you know, I never thought of it in that way, but Jesus's sacrifice also payed the price for stopping/delaying a possible war). Just like Judas, under predestination, Pilate was only playing the role he was scripted.

I could list countless more, but I think my thoughts have been communicated. I definitely understand the Free Will side in that a world in which we are forced to do something by something outside of our power isn't love and has no meaning. I also believe that God is in control and it would go against his very nature if he didn't know what was going to happen all along. Could it be that there is a hybridization of sorts between the two that is simply beyond our capabilities of fathoming? How do y'all reconcile this issue?

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Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.

But, note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

I don't hold to the idea that just because God knows something that He caused it to happen. If that was so, how could one be found guilty of any sin? What I read in the Scripture is that God "confirms" what the individual has already determined in their heart.

Judas' choice, for example, was brought about by his own greed. God used this trait about him to accomplish His ultimate purpose; but Judas exercised the trait in and of himself.

I believe we this this same "hardening" if you will all through the Scripture.

"Is it that we have the freedom to choose, but God already knows what is going to happen?"

heh heh

That's a FACT, JACK!!

If I had foreknowledge that this thread was going to be moved to an appropriate Soteriology Forum -- would that mean that I CAUSED IT TO BE MOVED THERE?

If I saw some car careening at too high a speed towards another car -- and FORESAW that there would be a wreck -- did I CAUSE the wreck?

"For as in Adam ALL die - even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive"

ALL - (Gr 'pas' or 'pantas') -- does it mean really EVERYBODY in both clauses?

Cant be one way in first clause - then another way in second clause

so does it prove Original Sin as well as Universalism?

heh heh

or are only "some of all types of men" tainted by Adam's disobedience?

Does Jesus really love "all the little children of the world"?

Or just "some of all types of all the little children in the world"?

Did it say that Christ died "for the sins of the whole world"? or that He died

for the Elect only and didn't give a flip about the double-predestined Reprobates?

Sometimes ALL means ALL -- sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I would agree that if God is all powerful and can see what's coming, it's hard to avoid some kind of responsibility for what happens. However I still think there's a difference between God setting out to make sure that certain people aren't saved, and giving everyone an opportunity. Even though he knows what the results are going to be.

In the end, the only way I can think of to avoid responsibility at all is something like open theism, where God isn't in control of all events.

Rom 9:19

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Gosh -- those things addressed to "O Man" -- I mean that is right TO US - isn't it?

That is right TO ME...

Yeah - Augustus -- its a good sub-forum

sticky wickets are confronted and not shrugged away

not easy stuff sometimes

somehow I think God can be sovereign and yet allow free will

I am sure I would never explain HOW to anyone's satisfaction

but then again -- I don't know HOW a man can be both Man and God --
and rise from the dead anyhow

really couldn't tell you how that can be

did I CHOOSE to believe it?

was I COMPELLED to believe it?

I think I chose

Augustus McCrae said:

I know this is a very disputed topic, and I am sure it has been brought up countless times.

What I'm confused about is how Free Will fits into the area of God's omniscience. If God knows everything, he therefore knows everything that everyone is ever going to do, and he has always known it, even before anything except him was in existence. Is it that we have the freedom to choose, but God already knows what is going to happen?

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Yes.

It would seem that if he already knows what will be, and he is the only force in existence at that time, is that or isn't that equal to him planning it?

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Not equal.

If there is predestination, I certainly feel more sympathetic for many people throughout history. Take Judas for instance. He is toted as one of the most infamous villains in the Bible, but from the standpoint of predestination, he was only doing the job that God appointed for him to do (I mean, for Jesus to die and fulfill his plan of saving us, someone had to betray him so he could be killed).

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Well, we do not know that God planned for Judas to do that. It would be sufficient for him to know, in advance, that he would.

then there's Pilate. He had a choice, set free a man and have a war on his hands that would get him executed; or kill the man to save the peace temporarily (you know, I never thought of it in that way, but Jesus's sacrifice also payed the price for stopping/delaying a possible war). Just like Judas, under predestination, Pilate was only playing the role he was scripted.

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I'm not seeing here any evidence of any "scripting." What we know is that Pilate wrestled with the matter and then made a decision, that's all. And if Pilate had decided to free Jesus rather than Barabbas, there is every reason to think that Jesus would have been put back in the same position thereafter for the reasons you already stated. His reputation as a political rebel was already established.

Predestination vs. Free Will?
yes .. yes to both.

Augustus McCrae said:

I know this is a very disputed topic, and I am sure it has been brought up countless times.

What I'm confused about is how Free Will fits into the area of God's omniscience. If God knows everything, he therefore knows everything that everyone is ever going to do, and he has always known it, even before anything except him was in existence. Is it that we have the freedom to choose, but God already knows what is going to happen? ...

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I think predestination is not correct, because Bible doesn’t say so and it would make it look like pointless. If Judas was set to do wrong thing, he would not be guilty. There would be no reason to judge, because all would have done everything just like ordered.

On the contrary, many things in the Bible present the idea that people have not done things like ordered. For example people didn’t obey God and not ate the fruit. Therefore I think people have free will.

But how then God can know all? If one knows person wholly, he knows what person will do, when he is in some situation. For example I know some people well enough to say what they will chose in certain situations. That does not mean that I have forced them to do something, it means just that I know how they think and therefore I know what they will do in some cases. If I would have set the universe to go around and made people, I could easily know what they will do in all situations, because I would know them and I would know the universe. It is almost same as, if I make computer, I could tell what it would do in future.

1213 said:

I think predestination is not correct, because Bible doesn’t say so and it would make it look like pointless.

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Not so fast. There are indeed Bible passages that strongly suggest the reality of predestination. And I would also dispute the idea that predestination makes anything pointless.

It would take some time to explain all of that, but it's so.

This is one of those topics that bewilder men.
If we don't have free agency, then there really is no point in being on earth. Essentially, we are all just created as pre-programmed robots to do what we were created to do, including sin. So why bother even creating us? God never tells us everything is predestined.
I believe certain events are. I believe the prophets were foreordained and chosen for their callings because to a certain extent, like Jesus they chose the right, and having loved righteousness, were chosen. As YHWH told Jeremiah, 1:4 "Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, and ordained thee a prophet to the nations."
So God has created the world according to His design, and has predestined certain events to take place according to his plan and prophecy. But I do not believe He has predestined every event to take place. He does know our mind tho, and knows how we will react to various things, and for those chosen in Him, will make sure certain things happen because we have chosen life in Him. So in this sense He is omnipotent. But He does allow us to go astray, and learn from our mistakes as well. He does not make every choice for us. If we have a test we must overcome, I believe we will continue to have that test in our life until we overcome it. So let's get started everybody!!
Cheers

RevelationTestament said:

This is one of those topics that bewilder men.
If we don't have free agency, then there really is no point in being on earth.

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That's how it must seem to people who are thinking of their own advancement. It seems unfair, etc. But God's purposes can and are served by many things that we do not directly benefit from. That is why Christians who believe in Predestination often make the point that even those who are not among the Elect can be expected, by God, to glorify him and do his work among men. But we, being self-centered, always want to think along the lines of "what's in it for me?" If we aren't exactly the masters of our own fate, we want to say "then what's the point?" The fact is that there can and is a point; it just doesn't require us to be the center of attention all the time.

Augustus McCrae said:

I know this is a very disputed topic, and I am sure it has been brought up countless times.

What I'm confused about is how Free Will fits into the area of God's omniscience. If God knows everything, he therefore knows everything that everyone is ever going to do, and he has always known it, even before anything except him was in existence. Is it that we have the freedom to choose, but God already knows what is going to happen? It would seem that if he already knows what will be, and he is the only force in existence at that time, is that or isn't that equal to him planning it?

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How does God know it is the question?

If there is both a future for God and man where God does not exist also in the future, yet God knows the future perfectly than man would not have a free will.

But if God is outside of time existing in the past, present and future than the God at the beginning of time can know our future free will choices through His existence in the future and man can still make free will choices.

You might think about it like this: The God of the distant future, knows all human free will choices as pure unchangeable history to Him, he then sends that information back to himself at the beginning of time through some wormhole type system, so the God at the beginning of time knows all the of “our” future.

If there is predestination, I certainly feel more sympathetic for many people throughout history. Take Judas for instance. He is toted as one of the most infamous villains in the Bible, but from the standpoint of predestination, he was only doing the job that God appointed for him to do (I mean, for Jesus to die and fulfill his plan of saving us, someone had to betray him so he could be killed). Then there's Pilate. He had a choice, set free a man and have a war on his hands that would get him executed; or kill the man to save the peace temporarily (you know, I never thought of it in that way, but Jesus's sacrifice also payed the price for stopping/delaying a possible war). Just like Judas, under predestination, Pilate was only playing the role he was scripted.

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How does it make you feel that they go to hell for the role they played and you go to heaven for the role you play?

I could list countless more, but I think my thoughts have been communicated. I definitely understand the Free Will side in that a world in which we are forced to do something by something outside of our power isn't love and has no meaning. I also believe that God is in control and it would go against his very nature if he didn't know what was going to happen all along. Could it be that there is a hybridization of sorts between the two that is simply beyond our capabilities of fathoming? How do y'all reconcile this issue?

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God being outside of time and God not being limited by time.

If we don't have free agency, then there really is no point in being on earth.

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Albion said:

That's how it must seem to people who are thinking of their own advancement. It seems unfair, etc.

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It is not a matter of fairness. I don't know where you get that idea from. It is just a matter of justness. Do you believe God is just? How can He be just if every little event is predistined? Then there is no fairness nor justness. To be just requires He treat everyone equally. For He says He is no respecter of persons. If everything is predetermined no matter how much we try to follow Him, why bother giving us commands? Just save us the pain, and give us our punishment already....
No point in coming to earth for a few years since our every sin would be predestined and he knows what punishment to affix. A doctrine of complete predestination makes the whole creation pointless really. Just send the "elect" to heaven and everyone else to hell like they were created to go...to me it is just nonsense.

RevelationTestament said:

It is not a matter of fairness.

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If that's your view of it. I was just saying that I have often heard people describe it that way...and they also use language like you did when expressing their views ("then there really is no point in being on earth")

I don't know where you get that idea from. It is just a matter of justness. Do you believe God is just? How can He be just if every little event is predistined?

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Of course he can be just. He is God and as such he can very well ordain life on Earth without obligating himself to rewarding us for anything.

I’d like to get back to Augustus’ original question of somehow reconciling free will with predestination. I think that is the problem; we try to reconcile these two ideas and thus fall down on one side or the other. I don’t think predestination (election) and free will are meant to be reconciled, nor are they mutually exclusive.. As is obvious, they seem to be contradictory teachings and yet both are clearly taught in Scripture. I think both election and free will are two different ways to look at the same object, say salvation. It’s like looking at a car accident from two different perspectives. Each perspective will likely give a different accounting of the same accident. When you look at events, such as salvation, from God’s perspective, you will see that salvation from start to finish is all of God’s doing. Whereas if you look at salvation from a human perspective, it especially involves human choice (free will). “Choose this day whom you will serve.” From the human perspective a person is responsible for the choices he/she makes, and God will hold him/her accountable for those choices. So the question from a human perspective is, will you choose for Christ or not? But when looking at Scriptures that speak of God’s will and actions, then you see clearly that God is the mover and shaker. He gets all the credit for the positive response made by the individual, and salvation is totally of grace. So sometimes a Bible author may be speaking of an human event (or salvation) from God’s perspective and other times from the human perspective, two separate vantage points by which to look at the same event. I hope this helps. Both free will and predestination are clearly taught in the Bible.

roger4 said:

I’d like to get back to Augustus’ original question of somehow reconciling free will with predestination. I think that is the problem; we try to reconcile these two ideas and thus fall down on one side or the other. I don’t think predestination (election) and free will are meant to be reconciled, nor are they mutually exclusive.. As is obvious, they seem to be contradictory teachings and yet both are clearly taught in Scripture. I think both election and free will are two different ways to look at the same object, say salvation. It’s like looking at a car accident from two different perspectives. Each perspective will likely give a different accounting of the same accident. When you look at events, such as salvation, from God’s perspective, you will see that salvation from start to finish is all of God’s doing. Whereas if you look at salvation from a human perspective, it especially involves human choice (free will). “Choose this day whom you will serve.” From the human perspective a person is responsible for the choices he/she makes, and God will hold him/her accountable for those choices. So the question from a human perspective is, will you choose for Christ or not? But when looking at Scriptures that speak of God’s will and actions, then you see clearly that God is the mover and shaker. He gets all the credit for the positive response made by the individual, and salvation is totally of grace. So sometimes a Bible author may be speaking of an human event (or salvation) from God’s perspective and other times from the human perspective, two separate vantage points by which to look at the same event. I hope this helps. Both free will and predestination are clearly taught in the Bible.

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very nicely said...

"For as in Adam ALL die -- even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive"

Paul said it - I didn't.

In the first clause -- does ALL really mean ALL?

In the second clause - does ALL really mean ALL?

If so, you have original sin, but you also have universal redemption - universalism.

ALL means ALL.

See it.

Know it.

Live it.

Historically, stuff like "works vs faith" and "FREE WILL VS DETERMINISM' goes way - way back.

Augustine of Hippo sparred with Pelagius the Monk regarding these things -- Augustine -- in just about every other point of theology he engaged in in his time -- was viewed as "having hung the moon" and his side WON in most things -- his eschatology of amillennilism won the day against the "old premillennialism/chiliasm" (note - it was not Pre-TRIB - but just preMIlennialism)

When it came to Pelagius vs Augustine -- Augustine;s views DID NOT win "hands down" -- the official position of the church at the time (note - before the schism of "Roman Catholic vs Greek Orthodox" by 5 centuries at least...)

The church's position became essentially "Semi-Pelagianism" --

works AND faith had a part - "free will" AND God's sovereignty had a part --

but Augustine's extreme views of DOUBLE PREDESTINATION were SHOT DOWN -- to sit in the dust a thousand years til Smokeless Johhny Rotten - Johnny Calvin - revived the double predestination stuff in Geneva in the 1500's

and we had all this TULIP jazz from Calvin and his followers

So articulate was/were Calvin and the Beza-bums who followed him -- that the whole 'free will vs predestination' issue was henceforth couched in the terms of the TULIP-sniffers -- EVEN WHEN CONTESTED BY ARMINIUS and his "followers", the Remonstrants - Arminius still put his thoughts in the same basic terminology as the TUILP-woofers

the debate proceeded in the language and milieu of the Genevan re-hash of Augustine's predestination goulash

Many people - then and today - reject/rejected the over-boardish predestination of the TULIP camp, yet for other reasons than the Arminians/Remonstrants; who, after all, continued to couch the whole issue in the terms of "God's decrees" blah blah blah -- non-biblical terms which had defined the discussion for a good while. supra-lapsarian and such folderol

Ask people who have never studied Calvinism or Armininaism at all -- ask 'em "does man have free will? and most will answer YES

and they wont give a flip about supralapsarianism, which "decree" went before another one - or what not

its just

Free will? of COURSE we have Free Will

How silly to say man doesn't have free will