Predestination vs. FREE WILL

[bornagain01]

I have a friend that is certain he will not go to Heaven because he has not been"preordained".
The verses he quotes are these"
Ephesians 1:11
Ephesians 1:15
Acts 13:48
John 15:16
2 Thess. 2:13

I do not believe in predestination and want to point out how he is misinterpreting these verses.

 

[InFathersArms]

This can be a long response, but the short of it has to do with God's "present" encompassing all of what we perceive as the passage of time, and the lack of appropriate tenses in the English language to appropriately describe this.

In English, the verse "I tell you the truth - before Abraham was, I AM" appears to mix tenses. In the original, it was appropriate for the Hebrews understood God as the Alpha and the Omega.

Revelations 1:6, 21:6, and 22:13 do a fare job of conveying the sentiments, too: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

 

[Inan3]

I would like to share with you a great free Bible Study download. It is called e-Sword. It comes with many different Bible Versions, multiple Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries, Maps, Commenaries. It makes it easy to just copy and paste into you posts. You can find it at www.e-Sword.net. I have not affiliation with this site. I just think it is excellent for Bible Study and wanted to pass it on.

 

[snowfloater]

This is an interesting debate that has gone on for a long time. There are other sites like this that I have seen amazing arguments break out in. The Bible tells us we have both!
Exodus 17:9 Moses said to Joshua, "Choose men for us, and go out, fight with Amalek. Tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with God's rod in my hand."
Can a man make a choice without free will?

Numbers 16:5 And he spoke1696 unto413 Korah7141 and unto413 all3605 his company,5712 saying,559 Even tomorrow1242 the LORD3068 will show3045 (853) who834 are his, and who is holy;6918 and will cause him to come near7126 unto413 him: even him whom834 he hath chosen977 will he cause to come near7126 unto413 him.

God chooses who will be near to Him.

Numbers 16:7 and put fire in them, and put incense on them before Yahweh tomorrow: and it shall be that the man whom Yahweh does choose, he shall be holy: you take too much on yourselves, you sons of Levi.

God chooses us to be his saints. Not the other way around. The Jews thought they were all holy but they found out who the elect were. Is this an example of God hardening the hearts of some so that others would understand His omnipotence? The leaders of the rebellion against Moses were swallowed by the earth and their followers burned to a crisp. If it was an act of free will for these men to rebel then God is good. If it was Gods will that these men should rebel to prove a point then is it an example of creating a lesser evil for the greater good? Is our idea of good and evil the same as Gods? God’s thoughts are not our thoughts. They are higher than the heavens to the earth in comparison.

Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a holy people to Yahweh your God: Yahweh your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples who are on the face of the earth.

God chooses us to be His possession. We don’t choose to be His possessions.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed;

If God did not give us fee will then why set a choice of blessing or curse before us? Without free will we are either blessed or cursed, it would not be a choice.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.

So we can choose to serve God, denoting free will, but God must choose us to be His servants, denoting pre-destiny. In reference to Deu 7:6 as compared to Jos 24:15

Proverb 1:28 Then will they call on me, but I will not answer. They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me;
Proverb1:29 because they hated knowledge, and didn't choose the fear of Yahweh

If we can choose the fear of Yahweh and love knowledge then He will answer and we can find Him when we diligently seek Him. This sounds like free will to me.

Isaiah66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears on them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I didn't delight."

God chose us to have delusions that would cause us to not answer, hear, or do that which was evil in His eyes? Or were the delusions and fears Punishment for our free will choice to not answer, hear, and to do evil.
It is clearly pre-destiny, Gods choice, who will be His chosen, His saints. Yet He chose all the Jews to be His and their free will choices separated them from Him. I know pre-destiny and free will are not supposed to be able to mix but we must not lean on our own understanding. If there was no free will than how could we be judged by God when it was His will for us not to be saints? If there was no pre-destiny then how could He know our beginning from our end? I can not comprehend how the two can mix but God is omniscient, omnipresent, and anything is possible to HIM.

I hope you are enjoying His blessings.
Snowfloater

 

[bornagain01]

So then, your response to someone like my friend would be, "sorry Dude, if God did not choose for you to be in Heaven, no matter how hard you want it, you are going to burn in Hell for eternity."

 

[snowfloater]

Bornagain01
I am not here to argue with you or fuel an argument between you and your friend. Im here to say that there is not predestination VS freewill but predestination AND freewill. I would never presume to tell anyone they are going to hell. I dont know their heart. When one of my friends expressed similar beliefs as yours I began praying for God to reveal His will for her. I also began asking her questions like "Do you have a heart to seek after Jesus?" "Do you want to go to Heaven?" "Do you believe Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead?" Bornagain01, God gives us the desires of our hearts. If your friend has a desire to go to heaven it is because God gave him/her that desire. God would not have given that desire to someone if He had not made them a vessal for grace. So my response to you, not your friend, would be to pray earnestly for your friend and I would exhort you not to argue with them but instead find out what it is they desire. If they desire to be a vessal for wrath then there is all the more reason for you to pray that God reveal His glory, mercy, and grace to your friend.
Snowfloater

 

[Inan3]

I have a friend that is certain he will not go to Heaven because he has not been"preordained".
The verses he quotes are these"
Ephesians 1:11
Ephesians 1:15
Acts 13:48
John 15:16
2 Thess. 2:13

I do not believe in predestination and want to point out how he is misinterpreting these verses.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

To interpret this scripture we must first look at the two words which begin it "In Whom" When we understand that this is the basis of how God looks at us...IN CHRIST...Not on our own merit, in any way. He looks at us IN CHRIST JESUS! Our salvation and all the we possess in God is based solely on HIS (Jesus') merit and grace and what HE has done. It is not based on whether we deserve it or NOT.

The scripture says that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. It was already in the mind of God that IN CHRIST we all would be predestined to receive this great salvation. God speaks things into existence before they happen. It is throughout the scriptures. He speaks and it happens whether it be immediatly or sometime in the future. It is predestined to happen and as far as God is concerned it happened when He spoke it.

Our salvation was predestined in Chist. WHOSOEVER believeth in Him receives this predestination, this positioning IN HIM. AS MANY AS CALL on the NAME of JESUS, and receive Him as LORD and SAVIOUR, receive the benefits of that which was predestined IN Christ.



Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

I don't know how this verse relates.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

This is explained the same way as is predestination. We are also, ordained IN the Lord.


Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The word ordained simply means placed. The definition follows.

G5087 τίθημι tithēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to set, put, place
1a) to place or lay
1b) to put down, lay down
1b1) to bend down
1b2) to lay off or aside, to wear or carry no longer
1b3) to lay by, lay aside money
1c) to set on (serve) something to eat or drink
1d) to set forth, something to be explained by discourse
2) to make
2a) to make (or set) for one’s self or for one’s use
3) to set, fix establish
3a) to set forth
3b) to establish, ordain
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged form of a primary theo (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)
Citing in TDNT: 8:152, 1176

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Once again the word "through" shows us that we are not the basis of this choosing. ALL men everywhere if they will believe the truth are chosen by God. When we believe the truth the terms for our predestination in CHRIST is met and God accepts us IN THE BELOVED.

 

[JPPT1974]

God indeed is the Alpha and the Omega
He is the first and the last
He began the world and will end it.