Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[BornAgainChristian1]

What is the mistranslation? I quoted a protestant bible by the way.

How does your translation say anything different than the NIV I used?

There is no protestant bible but in case you think God's word is owned by a particular church that is pretty much heresy.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Please tell me who your early church fathers are.

Please tell me where you got your Bible (not the store) but from which people?

Christ Himself and the apostles are my Christian forefathers. The bible I have is written by various men influenced by God Himself through the Holy Spirit. and preserved by God Himself.

2 Peter 1:211599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy Ghost.

Once again the bible doesn't support your claims the bible came through the your "catholic" church nor did they have any hand in writing anything in it.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I did not claim that God did not give Moses the law that He REPEATED to the Jews.

​

Sure you did several times.......you seem to have memory problems about your claims eh? After all your claim is that the laws you were referring to were "Moses laws". So who's laws are they Moses or God's?

 

[98cwitr]

Romans 10:13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” niv​

Why not ask the following Christians how they managed to forfeit their own salvation even though they prophesied in His Name, drove out demons in His Name, and performed many miracles in His Name?

Please note that they call out to Him, "Lord, Lord".

Matthew 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv
​

I'm sure these evil-doing Christians know exactly how they forfeited their salvation.

​

Based on your interpretation we have a pretty stark contradiction. "Will be saved" directly states future tense, which means exactly what it says "...will be...." Calling on His Name is very different than calling fruitlessly Him Lord [and not meaning it].

See the Romans 10 verse in context:

11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

To "call on Him" is not the same as to simply call Him Lord. See that true belief is also required. An atheist can jokingly call Him Lord sarcastically, is that person saved? Obviously not.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS AN EVIL DOING CHRISTIAN

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The way Christians understood scripture for the first 1000 years of Christianity. Later, politics intervened and some saw fit to change the interpretation to better suit their goals.

How many people were hunted down by the catholic church and burned at the stake for making the bible available to the common people? Foxes Book of the Martyrs mentions several.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Based on your interpretation we have a pretty stark contradiction. "Will be saved" directly states future tense, which means exactly what it says "...will be...." Calling on His Name is very different than calling fruitlessly Him Lord [and not meaning it].

See the Romans 10 verse in context:

11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

To "call on Him" is not the same as to simply call Him Lord. See that true belief is also required. An atheist can jokingly call Him Lord sarcastically, is that person saved? Obviously not.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS AN EVIL DOING CHRISTIAN

Calling the name of the Lord and calling on the name of the Lord seem to confuse you. So in your opinion if I ask the Lord to save me I'll just have to wait until He's got the time to do it right?
EDIT:
I apologize because I misunderstood you post.

 

[98cwitr]

All good dude

 

[Albion]

Personally, it does not matter to me what the Orthodox call the Catholic Pope.

I'm sure you don't, but it nevertheless is the case that the Catholics who fashioned the Councils and the Creed were primarily the Catholics we now identify as the Eastern Orthodox, and not so much the Roman Catholics.

The addition to the Creed was not a "redefinition" of the nature of God.

It sure was.

 

[StanJ]

I don't think it's coercive at all. There are a few verses that mention predestination in the New Testament and it all has to do with God's foreknowledge of who he will predestine. Predestination in this regard means nothing more than having a plan of action for a believers life. Remember that everything God planned, whether it be under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant, was all decided before he created one atom. Jesus said that no man could come to him unless the father draws him, so in that manner God's drawing may be considered coercive but my response would be it is more likened to wooing than anything else.

 

[98cwitr]

I don't think it's coercive at all. There are a few verses that mention predestination in the New Testament and it all has to do with God's foreknowledge of who he will predestine. Predestination in this regard means nothing more than having a plan of action for a believers life. Remember that everything God planned, whether it be under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant, was all decided before he created one atom. Jesus said that no man could come to him unless the father draws him, so in that manner God's drawing may be considered coercive but my response would be it is more likened to wooing than anything else.

Do you think that mean God does or does not have anything planned for the life of the person that will never believe?

 

[Hoghead1]

Considering we have 1 individual that keeps telling us the discussion is not on the topic of the OP yet he still replies and takes things further off topic I'm going to ask this thread be split into on topic and off topic posts go into another thread.

Amen to that.

 

[Hoghead1]

Do you think that mean God does or does not have anything planned for the life of the person that will never believe?

Predestination, as used by the church fathers, meant that God had ahead of time planned out every detail of creation and that everything happens according to that plan. So,m yes, it is coercive determinism. Every decision you make, you were preprogrammed to do by God. And, of course, God, ahead of time, predestined the elect and the reprobate. So you and I have absolutely no choice here. Read, for example, what the Westminster Confession ahs to say about election.

 

[98cwitr]

Predestination, as used by the church fathers, meant that God had ahead of time planned out every detail of creation and that everything happens according to that plan. So,m yes, it is coercive determinism. Every decision you make, you were preprogrammed to do by God. And, of course, God, ahead of time, predestined the elect and the reprobate. So you and I have absolutely no choice here. Read, for example, what the Westminster Confession ahs to say about election.

Amen.

 

[StanJ]

Do you think that mean God does or does not have anything planned for the life of the person that will never believe?

Personally I believe, based on the scripture in Rom 8:28-30, that God will not have a predestination for somebody that he can not predestine.
His predestination is based on his foreknowledge, that a person will come to accept his son as their savior.

 

[98cwitr]

Personally I believe, based on the scripture in Rom 8:28-30, that God will not have a predestination for somebody that he can not predestine.
His predestination is based on his foreknowledge, that a person will come to accept his son as their savior.

Romans 8:28-30New International Version (NIV)

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


I can see how you see that. So He leaves them to their own devices? What about Proverbs 16:9; 19:21; and 20:24?

 

[StanJ]

Romans 8:28-30 (NIV)
I can see how you see that. So He leaves them to their own devices? What about Proverbs 16:9; 19:21; and 20:24?

Well aside from Proverbs being under the Old Covenant, these verses you quote are about believers.

 

[Rick Otto]

We are all on probation. Only he who endures will be saved.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

John 15
.6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Matt 13
20The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and promptly receives it with joy. 21But since he has noroot, he remains for only a season. Whentrouble or persecution comes because ofthe word, he quickly falls away. 22The seed sown among the thorns is the one who hears the word, but the worries of this world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Matt 24
12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.13But the one who perseveres to the endwill be saved.

2 Chron 15:2
The LORD is with you while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

etc.

Yep, that's exactly how grace is represented as works.
Regarding Romans 11:22,... it's not about salvation. It is about your life here on earth. "Kindness" is about Christian community.
Let John Gill explain:
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
"if thou continue in his goodness;
meaning not the love, grace, and free favour of God, or the grace of the Spirit, a continuance in which no "if" is to be put upon; for such who are interested in the love of God always continue in it, and nothing can separate them from it; and such as have the graces of the Spirit implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love, can never lose them; these always remain in them, and they in the possession of them, though not always in the exercise of them; but the goodness of God in a church state is here meant, as the means of grace and comfort, the ministration of the word and ordinances; and the sense is, if thou dost not despise the riches of divine goodness in a church relation, if thou dost not abuse it, or walk unworthy of it, if thou abidest by it, and retainest a value for it, thou wilt still share the advantages of it:

otherwise thou also shall be cut off;
from the good olive tree, the Gospel church state, into which the Gentiles were taken; and which, with respect to particular persons, may intend the act of excommunication by the church, expressed in Scripture by purging the old leaven, putting away the wicked person, withdrawing from such that are disorderly, and rejecting heretics, that is, from the communion of the church; and with respect to whole bodies and societies, an entire unchurching of them by removing the Gospel, and the ordinances of it; which threatening has been awfully fulfilled in many Gentile churches, in Asia, Africa, and Europe; and therefore may serve to awaken our fear, care, and caution, lest we should be treated in like manner."
John Gill commentary
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/romans-11-22.html

John 15:6...interesting version you use, with its choice of words.
Try the KJV:
6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Etc.

 

[Rick Otto]

What is that suppose to mean?

Will their be pain in heaven?
Sadness?
Sin?

What if I freely want pain? What if I remember something sad? Am I not free to feel what I want?
I consider sadness and pain as necessary to life and learning.
I don't seek them out, but I don't define them as evil.
The big point about being able to sin in heaven is that free will doesn't seem to be operative in your concept of heaven.
I believe in will, but in it being free, so it isn't a problem for me, but your idea of heaven doesn't seem to accommodate it.
Help me with that.

 

[Thursday]

This thread continually pops up in my mailbox, under the title of "Predestination, Is It Coercive Determinism?" So, what on earth do your comments have to do with Predestination?

I was responding to another post.

 

[Thursday]

Where is the scripture for that?

Each church had its own issues.

1 Tim 3:15
14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household,which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.