Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Thursday]

No more than 'the early Christians came to be known as Orthodox and their churches became known as the Orthodox churches.'

There was no such thing as the Orthodox Churches until centuries later.

 

[Jan001]

Yep something we neither deserve or could ever earn.

You can forfeit salvation by doing evil works.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. nkjv

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. nkjv

Matthew 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv
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[Jan001]

Yes. See post #608.


The point is that you offered that verse as proof that people are saved according to their own works...but the verse doesn't say anything of the sort.


It's not necessary that we understand all the purposes of God. We have some ideas about this, but all that matters is whether he did predestine his Elect...or not...and the Scriptural testimony is that he did, but not on account of his knowledge of the Good Works that they would do.

We know that God rewards a person with either eternal life or condemnation according to his own works. We also know that before the foundation of the world God chose His elect/predestined according to His foreknowledge.

What criterion, according to His foreknowledge before the foundation of the world, do you think God used to predestine/elect some people to eternal life, but not others?

 

[Jan001]

You are talking strictly of YOUR early CHURCH fathers. And thank you for confirming that this has nothing to do with your CHURCH as "THE CHURCH" because the "CHURCH" is made up of all BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS.

Please tell me who your early church fathers are.

Please tell me where you got your Bible (not the store) but from which people?

 

[Jan001]

Your claim still hasn't changed the fact that God gave Moses all the laws he REPEATED to the Jews.

I did not claim that God did not give Moses the law that He REPEATED to the Jews.

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[Albion]

We know that God rewards a person with either eternal life or condemnation according to his own works.

No, we don't "know" that, Jan. It's the opinion of some church bodies, that's all.

What criterion, according to His foreknowledge before the foundation of the world, do you think God used to predestine/elect some people to eternal life, but not others?

I do not know. No one does. What we do know is that the Bible instructs us that God has chosen his Elect and that he will not forsake them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus only started one Church, although it had many locations by the time the New Testament was finished.

Here's an example:

Acts 15
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul started a lot more churches than that. He went to many countries. Check out his journeys.

 

[Thursday]

Paul started a lot more churches than that. He went to many countries. Check out his journeys.

Those are all part of the one Church. The Church is the body of Christ. Paul was not starting a new Church at each location, but adding locations to the Church.

 

[Jan001]

No more than 'the early Christians came to be known as Orthodox and their churches became known as the Orthodox churches.'

In fact, that would be a stronger argument because the Eastern theologians did more of the work at these councils than the ones from the West, and it was the Roman Church that changed the Creed some time later, breaking with the others and causing the Great Schism.

Way off OP topic.

The head of Jesus Christ's church on earth right now holds the keys of the kingdom of heaven. These keys were passed down from to Peter to Francis. No one in the Orthodox Church possesses these keys. Matthew 16:17-19

The creed was changed slightly by the Catholic Church so that it would be better understood by all people. The Catholic Church does hold the keys of the kingdom of heaven and this creed's change is true and this truth can be verified by Scripture.

 

[Albion]

Way off OP topic.

The head of Jesus Christ's church on earth right now holds the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

That would be a comforting thought to people who need that kind of certainty or orderliness, but it's still just one of many ways of understanding the Scriptures on that point. Spoon-feeding us readers the official POV of your own denomination seems to be something you think important, but it's not as though stating and restating it for our benefit is going to make it true.

The creed was changed slightly by the Catholic Church so that it would be better understood by all people.

It was a redefinition of the nature of God, so most people would not consider it to be such a minor housekeeping matter as you do. In addition, it was to alter a supposedly infallible decision of the Councils which allegedly were guided by the Holy Spirit, so it's no wonder that the Orthodox call the Roman Catholic Pope "the first Protestant."

 

[Thursday]

That would be a comforting thought to people who need that kind of certainty or orderliness, but it's still just one of many ways of understanding the Scriptures on that point.

The way Christians understood scripture for the first 1000 years of Christianity. Later, politics intervened and some saw fit to change the interpretation to better suit their goals.

 

[Hoghead1]

The Catholic Church and all of humanity is full of sinners, but there are no more pedophiles in the Catholic Church than any other Church. In fact, today there are far fewer than other Churches because of the rigid standards put in place after the scandals.

This thread continually pops up in my mailbox, under the title of "Predestination, Is It Coercive Determinism?" So, what on earth do your comments have to do with Predestination?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Those are all part of the one Church. The Church is the body of Christ. Paul was not starting a new Church at each location, but adding locations to the Church.

Where is the scripture for that?

Each church had its own issues.

 

[Jan001]

No, we don't "know" that, Jan. It's the opinion of some church bodies, that's all.

I do not know. No one does. What we do know is that the Bible instructs us that God has chosen his Elect and that he will not forsake them.

Some of us do know how He selected them.

 

[98cwitr]

You can forfeit salvation by doing evil works.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. nkjv

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. nkjv

Matthew 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv
​

How can you forfeit something you never had?

 

[Jan001]

That would be a comforting thought to people who need that kind of certainty or orderliness, but it's still just one of many ways of understanding the Scriptures on that point. Spoon-feeding us readers the official POV of your own denomination seems to be something you think important, but it's not as though stating and restating it for our benefit is going to make it true.


It was a redefinition of the nature of God, so most people would not consider it to be such a minor housekeeping matter as you do. In addition, it was to alter a supposedly infallible decision of the Councils which allegedly were guided by the Holy Spirit, so it's no wonder that the Orthodox call the Roman Catholic Pope "the first Protestant."

Personally, it does not matter to me what the Orthodox call the Catholic Pope.

But, every word a person speaks does matter to God and so each Orthodox person who claims that the Catholic Pope is the first Protestant will eventually find out how God thinks about their calling the Catholic Pope the first Protestant. If not beforehand, each Orthodox person will definitely find out at his own personal judgment.

Matthew 12:36
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; rsv​

The addition to the Creed was not a "redefinition" of the nature of God. It simply explained more clearly the nature of the Trinity of God so that people would not be confused.

Do you think that it is important to know that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son or do you think it's okay for the Creed to state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father without any mention of the Son? What is the Son's relationship to the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't this be known also?

 

[keltoi]

Considering we have 1 individual that keeps telling us the discussion is not on the topic of the OP yet he still replies and takes things further off topic I'm going to ask this thread be split into on topic and off topic posts go into another thread.

 

[Jan001]

How can you forfeit something you never had?

Romans 10:13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” niv​

Why not ask the following Christians how they managed to forfeit their own salvation even though they prophesied in His Name, drove out demons in His Name, and performed many miracles in His Name?

Please note that they call out to Him, "Lord, Lord".

Matthew 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv
​

I'm sure these evil-doing Christians know exactly how they forfeited their salvation.

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[keltoi]

Romans 10:13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” niv​

Why not ask the following Christians how they managed to forfeit their own salvation even though they prophesied in His Name, drove out demons in His Name, and performed many miracles in His Name?

Please note that they call out to Him, "Lord, Lord".

Matthew 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv
​

I'm sure these evil-doing Christians know exactly how they forfeited their salvation.

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That is a huge misinterpretation of scripture. Christ is pointing out that they weren't doing it in his name. It is like the tax man and the pharisee praying. The tax man went into a quiet corner and prayed to God quietly, the pharisee prayed out loud so everyone could hear him. The tax man was humble before God the pharisee wasn't and because of this the tax man was more likely to enter heaven than the pharisee.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Salvation is a gift of God. True.

However, continued faithfulness/obedience to God's commandments is what keeps a person saved. If a person continues in his salvation until his death, Jesus will then approve him worthy to inherit eternal life.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. nkjv

James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. nkjv



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There is nothing in your claim that salvation involves "WORKS" Christ died on the cross to forgive ALL of our sins and there is no "work" that will in any way pay or cancel out sin.

Ephesians 2:4-91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
4 But God which is rich in mercy, through his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead by sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, by whose grace ye are saved,
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 That he might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of his grace through his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.

You do realize that anything other than Christs blood is a "work" don't you?