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Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

Albion

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As I called to your attention before, "according to their own works" is not part of that verse (and I'm looking at a Catholic translation of the Bible as I write this).



 
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Albion

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Not at all.

You stated that a person cannot do good works if he does not have faith.

I disagree.
Fair enough. It looked like you'd paraphrased my explanation, only rearranging the words. But you are entitled to disagree with me and my statement..
 
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Albion

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Every churchman and every council attendee do not have to be infallible. However, since this council group/magisterium prays and asks for the Holy Spirit's guidance, they are infallible in all their decisions regarding faith and morals.
I've gotta say that that's a fond theory...but ridiculous. What you and others are doing when you say that is nothing more than stipulating that it's so. There is no evidence to support it. Or logic. And there are a number of decisions that were made by some council and later changed.
 
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keltoi

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The Bible was written by Hebrews not Catholics. Please understand the difference.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I take it you lean heavily towards works oriented salvation.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Could you point to one scripture that mentions "catholics" wrote the bible? Your joking here right?
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Fact is all laws are of God alone and if you don't believe that then where exactly did Moses get the laws from? Oh wait God wrote them down on two tablets twice hmmmm.......right from Moses mouth...


Exodus 18:16
When they have a matter, they come unto me, and I judge between one and another, and declare the ordinances of God, and his laws.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the Testament that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my Laws in their mind, and in their heart I will write them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 
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Thursday

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Could you point to one scripture that mentions "catholics" wrote the bible? Your joking here right?


Jesus started the Catholic Church. He didn't write a word of the New Testament. His Church wrote down his teachings(the gospels) and members of his Church also wrote the NT epistles. The Church later selected the early Christian writings which were to be considered scripture and formally declared the books of the New Testament.
 
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Thursday

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The Bible was written by Hebrews not Catholics. Please understand the difference.

Jesus started the Catholic Church. All the early Christians were members of his Church, ie. Catholics. They Church wasn't called Catholic until a few decades later, but it was the same Church. Catholic just means universal or "on the whole".
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Please quote scripture where Jesus started the "catholic" church? And then tell which of the many CHRISTIAN churches mentioned throughout the bible was the "catholic" church?
 
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keltoi

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Jesus started the Catholic Church. All the early Christians were members of his Church, ie. Catholics. They Church wasn't called Catholic until a few decades later, but it was the same Church. Catholic just means universal or "on the whole".
This is way off topic but you are just so wrong it isn't funny. The Catholic Church did not write the Bible. The OT was written by Hebrews practising Judaism, the NT was written by Hebrews that practised Judaism and followed Christ. The Church wasn't considered anything but a sect of Judaism for a very long time after the Bible was completed.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I've never heard in 48 years that Jesus started the Catholic Church. Please share your proof of this claim
 
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ToBeLoved

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Jesus started the Catholic Church. All the early Christians were members of his Church, ie. Catholics. They Church wasn't called Catholic until a few decades later, but it was the same Church. Catholic just means universal or "on the whole".

Do you have your verses that show that.
 
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Thursday

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Please quote scripture where Jesus started the "catholic" church? And then tell which of the many CHRISTIAN churches mentioned throughout the bible was the "catholic" church?


Jesus only started one Church. Which Church is 2000 years old? Which Church is lead by the successor of Peter? Which Church forgives sins?
 
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Thursday

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Do you have your verses that show that.

Of course. Jesus started one Church 2000 years ago. It was led by Peter who alone held the keys to the Kingdom.

Which Church is 2000 years old and led by the successor of Peter?
 
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Thursday

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Obviously I was referring to the NT.

Jesus started the Church. The apostles were the leaders of his Church. Which Church do you think he started?

Which Church is led today by the successors of Peter and the apostles?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Jesus only started one Church. Which Church is 2000 years old? Which Church is lead by the successor of Peter? Which Church forgives sins?

Jesus calls every believer the church.

Maybe look further into all being the church instead of looking at a church
 
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Thursday

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I've never heard in 48 years that Jesus started the Catholic Church. Please share your proof of this claim


Most Christians in the world are Catholic, so this is no big news to most Christians.

Jesus started a single Church nearly 2000 years ago. He selected leaders and gave them his authority. These leaders spread the message of his Church and they are still doing so today.

Here's one early example of the term Catholic being used to describe the Church, but it doesn't really matter what it was called as long as it is the one, holy, and apostolic church started by Christ.

St. Ignatius, a disciple of John, writing in about 107 AD:

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve, this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Bishop and Martyr; Letter to the Smyrneans § 8)
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Jesus only started one Church. Which Church is 2000 years old? Which Church is lead by the successor of Peter? Which Church forgives sins?
You have yet to provide any scriptures to back up your erroneous claims....we're still waiting?

The catholic church is not the "true" church


Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.
 
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Thursday

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Jesus calls every believer the church.

Maybe look further into all being the church instead of looking at a church

Yes, a member of the Church, but not the leader.

Jesus only started one Church and he appointed the leaders.
 
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