Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

"The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world according to God's foreknowledge of all the future doings of each and every person. Only God knows who His elect are and He elected them to receive eternal life according to their own works."​

As I called to your attention before, "according to their own works" is not part of that verse (and I'm looking at a Catholic translation of the Bible as I write this).



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[Albion]

Not at all.

You stated that a person cannot do good works if he does not have faith.

I disagree.

Fair enough. It looked like you'd paraphrased my explanation, only rearranging the words. But you are entitled to disagree with me and my statement..

 

[Albion]

Every churchman and every council attendee do not have to be infallible. However, since this council group/magisterium prays and asks for the Holy Spirit's guidance, they are infallible in all their decisions regarding faith and morals.

I've gotta say that that's a fond theory...but ridiculous. What you and others are doing when you say that is nothing more than stipulating that it's so. There is no evidence to support it. Or logic. And there are a number of decisions that were made by some council and later changed.

 

[keltoi]

The Bible was written by Catholic Christians using the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is their Book. God also gave these Catholic writers the authority to infallibly interpret their own Scriptures. The Holy Spirit also inspired the early Catholic Christian Fathers to infallibly determine their own Canons of Scripture.

No one can give himself authority to do any of these things. These things were decided long ago and they cannot possibly be changed. Truth does not and cannot change.

I am Catholic because I agree with their doctrines and their own interpretations of their own Scriptures.

The Bible was written by Hebrews not Catholics. Please understand the difference.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Before the foundation of the world, God put into His hand only the people who He foreknew to be still faithful to Him at the time of their death.

God did not put into His hand the people who never believed in Him. God did not put into His hand the people who only believed/obeyed for a while. God did not put into His hand the people who neglected to produce good fruit.

Before the foundation of the world, God put into His hand only the people who He knew were faithful to Him until they died.



Christ died for all our sins that He might bring us to God. Jesus Christ forgives all our sins when we first believe and become saved. But we are commanded to live in righteousness until death if we want to be approved to inherit eternal life.

1 Peter 2:241599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we being dead to sin, should live in righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

Should is a command, not a suggestion.

What happens to Christians who choose to sin after Jesus saves them?

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv
​

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross does not continue to save the sinful Christian. These sinful Christians rejected Jesus Christ, profaned His blood sacrifice, and outraged the Spirit of Grace. Unless these evil Christians repent of their sins and do righteousness until they die, they will not be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.

I take it you lean heavily towards works oriented salvation.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The Bible was written by Catholic Christians using the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is their Book. God also gave these Catholic writers the authority to infallibly interpret their own Scriptures. The Holy Spirit also inspired the early Catholic Christian Fathers to infallibly determine their own Canons of Scripture.

No one can give himself authority to do any of these things. These things were decided long ago and they cannot possibly be changed. Truth does not and cannot change.

I am Catholic because I agree with their doctrines and their own interpretations of their own Scriptures.

Could you point to one scripture that mentions "catholics" wrote the bible? Your joking here right?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What "law" do you think Paul is speaking of if not Moses' Law?

Regardless, it is Jesus alone who saves us when we first repent and believe and therefore no good work/deed of our own could ever have atoned for Adam's sin. Only Jesus Christ could atone for Adam's sin. Only a Person who is both God and Man could ever atone for Adam's sin and thereby repair the relationship between God and man. Titus 3:5


Gifts, including the gift of salvation, can be rejected at any time.

Christians who deliberately and grievously sin after they are saved are rejecting and profaning the blood of Jesus which saved them and so they are no longer saved. These evil Christians have rejected/denied Jesus by their own deeds/works.

By committing grievous sins, they denied/rejected Jesus' gift. Unless they repent of their grievous sins before death, they will receive vengeance from God instead of the eternal life which they had been expecting.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. nkjv​

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. nkjv

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. nkjv

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When they are judged, the evil Christians will be surprised to hear what Jesus has to say to them. However, it will be too late for them to repent of their evil deeds and so they will reap what they sowed.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. rsv
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Fact is all laws are of God alone and if you don't believe that then where exactly did Moses get the laws from? Oh wait God wrote them down on two tablets twice hmmmm.......right from Moses mouth...


Exodus 18:16
When they have a matter, they come unto me, and I judge between one and another, and declare the ordinances of God, and his laws.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the Testament that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my Laws in their mind, and in their heart I will write them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Thursday]

Could you point to one scripture that mentions "catholics" wrote the bible? Your joking here right?

Jesus started the Catholic Church. He didn't write a word of the New Testament. His Church wrote down his teachings(the gospels) and members of his Church also wrote the NT epistles. The Church later selected the early Christian writings which were to be considered scripture and formally declared the books of the New Testament.

 

[Thursday]

The Bible was written by Hebrews not Catholics. Please understand the difference.

Jesus started the Catholic Church. All the early Christians were members of his Church, ie. Catholics. They Church wasn't called Catholic until a few decades later, but it was the same Church. Catholic just means universal or "on the whole".

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Jesus started the Catholic Church. He didn't write a word of the New Testament. His Church wrote down his teachings(the gospels) and members of his Church also wrote the NT epistles. The Church later selected the early Christian writings which were to be considered scripture and formally declared the books of the New Testament.

Please quote scripture where Jesus started the "catholic" church? And then tell which of the many CHRISTIAN churches mentioned throughout the bible was the "catholic" church?

 

[keltoi]

Jesus started the Catholic Church. All the early Christians were members of his Church, ie. Catholics. They Church wasn't called Catholic until a few decades later, but it was the same Church. Catholic just means universal or "on the whole".

This is way off topic but you are just so wrong it isn't funny. The Catholic Church did not write the Bible. The OT was written by Hebrews practising Judaism, the NT was written by Hebrews that practised Judaism and followed Christ. The Church wasn't considered anything but a sect of Judaism for a very long time after the Bible was completed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus started the Catholic Church. He didn't write a word of the New Testament. His Church wrote down his teachings(the gospels) and members of his Church also wrote the NT epistles. The Church later selected the early Christian writings which were to be considered scripture and formally declared the books of the New Testament.

I've never heard in 48 years that Jesus started the Catholic Church. Please share your proof of this claim

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus started the Catholic Church. All the early Christians were members of his Church, ie. Catholics. They Church wasn't called Catholic until a few decades later, but it was the same Church. Catholic just means universal or "on the whole".

Do you have your verses that show that.

 

[Thursday]

Please quote scripture where Jesus started the "catholic" church? And then tell which of the many CHRISTIAN churches mentioned throughout the bible was the "catholic" church?

Jesus only started one Church. Which Church is 2000 years old? Which Church is lead by the successor of Peter? Which Church forgives sins?

 

[Thursday]

Do you have your verses that show that.

Of course. Jesus started one Church 2000 years ago. It was led by Peter who alone held the keys to the Kingdom.

Which Church is 2000 years old and led by the successor of Peter?

 

[Thursday]

This is way off topic but you are just so wrong it isn't funny. The Catholic Church did not write the Bible. The OT was written by Hebrews practising Judaism, the NT was written by Hebrews that practised Judaism and followed Christ. The Church wasn't considered anything but a sect of Judaism for a very long time after the Bible was completed.

Obviously I was referring to the NT.

Jesus started the Church. The apostles were the leaders of his Church. Which Church do you think he started?

Which Church is led today by the successors of Peter and the apostles?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus only started one Church. Which Church is 2000 years old? Which Church is lead by the successor of Peter? Which Church forgives sins?

Jesus calls every believer the church.

Maybe look further into all being the church instead of looking at a church

 

[Thursday]

I've never heard in 48 years that Jesus started the Catholic Church. Please share your proof of this claim

Most Christians in the world are Catholic, so this is no big news to most Christians.

Jesus started a single Church nearly 2000 years ago. He selected leaders and gave them his authority. These leaders spread the message of his Church and they are still doing so today.

Here's one early example of the term Catholic being used to describe the Church, but it doesn't really matter what it was called as long as it is the one, holy, and apostolic church started by Christ.

St. Ignatius, a disciple of John, writing in about 107 AD:

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve, this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Bishop and Martyr; Letter to the Smyrneans § 8)

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Jesus only started one Church. Which Church is 2000 years old? Which Church is lead by the successor of Peter? Which Church forgives sins?

You have yet to provide any scriptures to back up your erroneous claims....we're still waiting?

The catholic church is not the "true" church


Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.

 

[Thursday]

Jesus calls every believer the church.

Maybe look further into all being the church instead of looking at a church

Yes, a member of the Church, but not the leader.

Jesus only started one Church and he appointed the leaders.