Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

Thursday · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
It's possible we're dealing with the "New" Catholic idea that the blood of Christ covers, i.e. saves, anyone and everyone--so long as he's true to his pagan faith, which in turn means doing good stuff in order to please God.

That is not a Catholic idea, new or old.

The Catholic Church teaches, as does scripture, that we don't know how Christ may save those who don't personally know him.

Thursday · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
No, he didn't. At least we have no reason to think he did.

Of course we do. Jesus promised the leaders of his Church that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth and he gave them the power to bind and loose.

Albion · May 9, 2016

Thursday said:
That is not a Catholic idea, new or old.

Hmm. I'd have taken you for being better informed, considering how certain you are of what you think your church teaches.

Albion · May 9, 2016

Thursday said:
Of course we do. Jesus promised the leaders of his Church that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth and he gave them the power to bind and loose.

You're answering to the wrong point (or wrong post) there.

Patmos · May 9, 2016

The object of "predestination" in Rom. 8:29 is "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

Patmos · May 9, 2016

The object of "predestination" in Rom. 8:29 is "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

So not predetermined before the foundation of the world to be a reprobate.

Jan001 · May 9, 2016

98cwitr said:
I believe that God's chosen are the elect. I believe that some are not chosen and they are called the non-elect. The elect know His voice, and the non-elect do not. The elect hear the Word and believe, the non-elect hear and are confused. I believe Christ knows the elect, but the non-elect He "never knew." I believe that the elect are Children of God, and that the non-elect are children of the devil. The elect repent, the non-elect do not. To say the non-elect could ever become the elect is to:

1. Deny the doctrine of election
2. Deny either God's Omniscience or to deny that He is the Creator
3. Promote works salvation

I've got Scripture to back up every one of those beliefs.

The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world according to God's foreknowledge of all the future doings of each and every person. Only God knows who His elect are and He elected them to receive eternal life according to their own works.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. nkjv

None of us living here on earth right now know for sure if we are one of God's elect. We can't and don't know whether we are members of the elect because we do not know what we will be doing each day for the rest of our lives.

Perhaps that is why Jesus told us that if we want to be His disciples, we must deny ourselves daily and take up our cross of sacrifice daily and obey/follow Jesus daily.

Luke 9:23
Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. nkjv

Paul states that if a person is presently a vessel for dishonor, that he can become a vessel for honor, if he cleanses himself from his dishonor. His cleansing [repentance] sanctifies him and thereby makes him useful and prepared to do good works for His Master.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. nkjv

God is omnipotent and He has chosen to impartially repay every person according to his own works.

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. nkjv

Romans 2:5-7
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, rsv

Before the foundation of the world, God chose His elect according to His foreknowledge of all the works of each person from the time of his birth until the time of his death.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

Albion · May 9, 2016

Jan001 said:
The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world according to God's foreknowledge of all the future doings of each and every person. Only God knows who His elect are and He elected them to receive eternal life according to their own works.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

This verse doesn't support either of the parts of your comment above shown in color, however.

None of us living here on earth right now know for sure if we are one of God's elect.

Click to expand...

Since this is agreed to by just about every contributor, maybe we should stop addressing it.

Thursday · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
This verse doesn't support either of the parts of your comment above shown in color, however.

Yes it does:

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. nkjv

Faith and works which are both known by God.

Albion · May 9, 2016

Thursday said:
Yes it does:

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. nkjv

Faith and works which are both known by God.

Again, the point was missed. The red part of the post says that all the future doings of the person were part of the reason for God to choose whom he did. You are pointing to a phrase that explains to what end or for what purpose God made his choice, not that it played a part in the election. And as for the pink wording, that's just an assumption made by this poster (that God elected them to be saved according to their works). There is none of that 'works righteousness' theory in 1 Peter 1:2. Whether or not that perspective is true, it's not part of 1 Peter 1:2

Jan001 · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
It's possible we're dealing with the "New" Catholic idea that the blood of Christ covers, i.e. saves, anyone and everyone--so long as he's true to his pagan faith, which in turn means doing good stuff in order to please God.

It has always been taught that those persons who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, that they can still be saved by Him if they work righteousness instead of evil. Every person is judged by Jesus Christ and He can have mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy on.

If a person is true to his pagan faith and works unrighteousness because of it, he will not be saved by Jesus. The pagan will be judged by the natural law of God. People who love their neighbors as themselves, even if they are ignorant of God and His commandments can still be saved if Jesus wants to save them and I do think that Jesus will save these persons who work righteousness.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, rsv

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” rsv

Romans 2:13-16
(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. nkjv

Jan001 · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
You seem to miss the point that whatever it is that Good Works produce, you can't do any of them without Faith.

It is true that a person cannot have faith in Jesus if he does not do the good works that God has prepared for him to do.

But, God gives every person the grace to do good works if he wants to do them.

God prevents no person from doing good works.

Thursday · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
Again, the point was missed. The red part of the post says that all the future doings of the person were part of the reason for God to choose whom he did.

That's what the bible says.

Jan001 · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
No, he didn't. At least we have no reason to think he did.

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. nkjv

Albion · May 9, 2016

Jan001 said:
It is true that a person cannot have faith in Jesus if he does not do the good works that God has prepared for him to do..

So you've turned my statement upside down. Was that the intention?

Albion · May 9, 2016

Jan001 said:
John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. nkjv

Nothing in that verse says that every churchman, council attendee, or whatever will be infallible. That was your contention and, as I said, there's no basis for such a conclusion.

Thursday · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
Nothing in that verse says that every churchman, council attendee, or whatever will be infallible. That was your contention and, as I said, there's no basis for such a conclusion.

That was not his contention. The Church speaks with a single voice on matters of faith and morals. If you want to know what the Church teaches you can find out.

Individual heretics are irrelevant.

Jan001 · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
This verse doesn't support either of the parts of your comment above shown in color, however.

"The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world according to God's foreknowledge of all the future doings of each and every person. Only God knows who His elect are and He elected them to receive eternal life according to their own works."

God is omniscient.

Do you believe that God knew everything about everyone before He created them?

Do you believe that God's foreknowledge included all the future doings of each and every person?

Do you believe that God chose His elect based on His foreknowledge of their future works, both good and evil? Or do you believe that He impartially chose them?

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: nkjv

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall never enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. rsv

Before the foundation of the world, God chose His elect according to His foreknowledge of all future events on earth.

Colossians 3:25
For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality. rsv

God had a criteria by which He chose His elect.

Romans 2:5-10
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. rsv

Jan001 · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
So you've turned my statement upside down. Was that the intention?

Not at all.

You stated that a person cannot do good works if he does not have faith.

I disagree.

Jan001 · May 9, 2016

Albion said:
Nothing in that verse says that every churchman, council attendee, or whatever will be infallible. That was your contention and, as I said, there's no basis for such a conclusion.

Every churchman and every council attendee do not have to be infallible. However, since this council group/magisterium prays and asks for the Holy Spirit's guidance, they are infallible in all their decisions regarding faith and morals. Once a decision is made regarding a doctrine, it cannot ever be changed.

Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Acts 1:24-26
And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. rsv

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. rsv

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. rsv

Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

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