Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

BornAgainChristian1 · May 1, 2016

98cwitr said:
So what do you do at this point? Simply ignore the scripture I post?

Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yetnot my will, but yours be done.”

John 8:54
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Christ clearly does not equate Himself to the Father!

Again the bible doesn't support your claim.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Rick Otto · May 1, 2016

keltoi said:
Please give me some evidence to suggest God predestined, meaning he made the choice before time began, to create what is probably the biggest mess ever and let billions of people die because of it.

My pleasure:
Eph1 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rick Otto · May 1, 2016

keltoi said:
Read the entire chapter instead of posting 2 verses out of context. God did not predestine billions of people to death. God foreknew those who would accept Christ so he predestined that they would be in the image of the Son, nothing more nothing less. It is reference to the new body Christians are resurrected with in the end times.

Foreknowledge is a result of pre-planning, not clairvoyance.
God knows because He created intentionally, not so that He would have to "peer" into a future He created Himself.

Rick Otto · May 1, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Again the bible doesn't support your claim.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

How do you explain the trinity? Just curious.

Rick Otto · May 1, 2016

keltoi said:
Do you not acknowledge the courts of the US as being able to judge you if you break a law of the US? Are the courts of the US responsible for you?

Only to the degree that I have consciously contracted with them. Check this out about establishing jurisdiction, it is short and interesting.

Albion · May 1, 2016

Jan001 said:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Before the foundation of the world, God knew which people would still be faithful to Him/His commandments until death. He predestined only these people to eternal life. He placed only these people into His hand.

You're rationalizing. Nothing there says that these are chosen or secure only because God knows from all eternity what they'll choose to do on their own (if that line of argument even makes sense in the first place).

Rick Otto · May 1, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
It's your problem you don't believe scripture that Christ died for those that Believe on His name and yes that means everybody.

I believe you mean well despite your profound confusion.

ScottA · May 1, 2016

keltoi said:
The concept of predestination is a man made construct. We have freewill which God gave us, we are able to accept Christ as saviour and Lord if we choose to, likewise we are able to reject Christ as saviour and Lord if we choose to. Saying things are predestined means God is willingly and knowingly interfering and causing possibly billions of people to be damned to hell. I don't accept that.

Erose said:
Predestination isn't a man-made construct. What is a man-made construct is the skewed understanding of what predestination means.

Both of those perspectives are internal. But if we come to know and consider God's perspective fully, neither is correct.

Time is a part of creation - without time, there is no predestination as such. What we experience from within our creation experience only exists on a timeline because it is a story line - the story line of the revelation of Jesus Christ. From our perspective we see everything as we could imagine a cartoon character sees his existence. For instance, in the story of Mickey Mouse...how old is he? How long does he live? How old is his universe? Did he evolve from a dinosaur? No, he was created, and yet to fully understand - Disney would not have a timeline to his life either. So, then...coming from a place of no timeline, Mickey would have simply been created...a story told, wherein there is no time except story time - and no, no predestination.

But lets just say that Disney decides to grant Mickey eternal life... Would Mickey wake up from his time in the created story of the telling of - not his story, but that of his Creator...into the same world of time? No, time was simply part of the story, which would now have passed away like the memory of a movie. No, at that point, Mickey would be in Walt's world (his magical kingdom)...and it would have all been a story told, once upon a time.

The End.

Rick Otto · May 1, 2016

ScottA said:
Both of those perspectives are internal. But if we come to know and consider God's perspective fully, neither is correct.

Time is a part of creation - without time, there is no predestination as such. What we experience from within our creation experience only exists on a timeline because it is a story line - the story line of the revelation of Jesus Christ. From our perspective we see everything as we could imagine a cartoon character sees his existence. For instance, in the story of Mickey Mouse...how old is he? How long does he live? How old is his universe? Did he evolve from a dinosaur? No, he was created, and yet to fully understand - Disney would not have a timeline to his life either. So, then...coming from a place of no timeline, Mickey would have simply been created...a story told, wherein there is no time except story time - and no, no predestination.

But lets just say that Disney decides to grant Mickey eternal life... Would Mickey wake up from his time in the created story of the telling of - not his story, but that of his Creator...into the same world of time? No, time was simply part of the story, which would now have passed away like the memory of a movie. No, at that point, Mickey would be in Walt's world (his magical kingdom)...and it would have all been a story told, once upon a time.

The End.

Awesome! The only thing it lacks is a soundtrack:

mikpat · May 1, 2016

There was a young boy digging a hole close to the surf. When he had the hole large enough the youngster ran to the surf with his pail, filled it with water and emptied into the hole, only to see it seep into the sand and disappear, the boy ran back to the surf and gathered another pail of water, with the same result. A cleric walking along the shore with a student ponted to the little boy and his pail, running back and forth. The teacher said to the student, "that the boy had more chance of filling the hole then you, attempting to understand the Trinity."

Understanding the Trinity begins with faith and then with some reason, one may have some understanding of such a mystery.

AMDG

Deus Est Veritas

ScottA · May 1, 2016

mikpat said:
There was a young boy digging a hole close to the surf. When he had the hole large enough the youngster ran to the surf with his pail, filled it with water and emptied into the hole, only to see it seep into the sand and disappear, the boy ran back to the surf and gathered another pail of water, with the same result. A cleric walking along the shore with a student ponted to the little boy and his pail, running back and forth. The teacher said to the student, "that the boy had more chance of filling the hole then you, attempting to understand the Trinity."

Understanding the Trinity begins with faith and then with some reason, one may have some understanding of such a mystery.

AMDG

Deus Est Veritas

...The student then turned to the cleric and said, "What mystery? Me, myself, and I - completely understand."

BornAgainChristian1 · May 1, 2016

Rick Otto said:
I believe you mean well despite your profound confusion.

Yes I believe you are confused by the facts I posted because what I said is indeed stated in the bible.

John 3:
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again you do comprehend whosoever = everyone including the Jews God's chosen people.

Albion · May 1, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Yes I believe you are confused by the facts I posted because what I said is indeed stated in the bible.

John 3:
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. .

Do you not understand that this statement can apply equally to "whosoevers" regardless of whether they come to belief in Christ by either a free choice or by Election?

Hoghead1 · May 1, 2016

mikpat said:
There was a young boy digging a hole close to the surf. When he had the hole large enough the youngster ran to the surf with his pail, filled it with water and emptied into the hole, only to see it seep into the sand and disappear, the boy ran back to the surf and gathered another pail of water, with the same result. A cleric walking along the shore with a student ponted to the little boy and his pail, running back and forth. The teacher said to the student, "that the boy had more chance of filling the hole then you, attempting to understand the Trinity."

Understanding the Trinity begins with faith and then with some reason, one may have some understanding of such a mystery.

AMDG

Deus Est Veritas[/QUOTE
Yes, but often these so-called mysteries of the Trinity are just cover-ups for the muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

BornAgainChristian1 · May 1, 2016

Rick Otto said:
How do you explain the trinity? Just curious.

No man can explain or comprehend the trinity.

BornAgainChristian1 · May 1, 2016

Albion said:
Do you not understand that this statement can apply equally to "whosoevers" regardless of whether they come to belief in Christ by either a free choice or by Election?

I stand by what I posted and what I was pointing out that everybody has access to salvation through Christ alone.

Hoghead1 · May 1, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
No man can explain or comprehend the trinity.

Baloney. The real issue is that many unduly write off Trinitarian problems and apparent paradoxes to the mystery of God, when, in reality, they mostly stem from muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

actionsub · May 1, 2016

Never mind. twin1954 already articulated what I was going to say WRT predestination and foreordination.

Albion · May 1, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
I stand by what I posted and what I was pointing out that everybody has access to salvation through Christ alone.

I'm sure that's what you believe; I was just pointing out that the verse you cited doesn't prove either that "everybody has access to salvation through Christ alone" or that it's accomplished by free will or by predestination.

BornAgainChristian1 · May 1, 2016

Albion said:
I'm sure that's what you believe; I was just pointing out that the verse you cited doesn't prove either that "everybody has access to salvation through Christ alone" or that it's accomplished by free will or by predestination.

All men are predestined to be saved but few are.

Matthew 7:13-14
¶ Enter in at the strait gate: for it is the wide gate, and broad way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be which go in thereat. Because the gate is strait, and the way narrow that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen

Matthew 7:13-14
¶ Enter in at the strait gate: for it is the wide gate, and broad way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be which go in thereat. Because the gate is strait, and the way narrow that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few chosen.

Luke 13: 23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that shall be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When the good man of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye began to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are,
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out at doors.

Romans 9:27-28
Also Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel were as the sand of the sea, yet shall but a remnant be saved.
28 For he will make his account, and gather it into a short sum with righteousness: for the Lord will make a short count in the earth.

As you can see many are called and many refuse......a choice.
.

Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

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