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Predestination/"Free Will"

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bird

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3rd April 2003 at 03:23 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #139




The blood of Christ was sufficent for all but effective only for the elect..

bird we have met before have we not?


dear momof7,

 

help me understand what you mean when you say "sufficient for all, but effective only for the elect."   it kind of sounds like jesus has the means to save all, but chooses not to.

 

i  don't think so.

 

bird
 
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bird

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3rd April 2003 at 03:46 AM CCWoody said this in Post #142

bird, it is my understanding that this portion of the forum is for Christians only. Just for your FYI....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


 

dear woody,

 

that was my understanding as well.   it was also my understanding that this was the soteriology forum where we could discuss the study of salvation....was i mistaken? 

 

bird
 
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rnmomof7

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Correct..He saved all those that were given to Him by the Father..not one more or one less..
 
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rnmomof7

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What religion are you bird?
 
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bird

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3rd April 2003 at 05:03 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #144




Correct..He saved all those that were given to Him by the Father..not one more or one less..

 

thank you for responding....

 

so, it was the father who chose?  when did that selection process take place?  what was his criteria?   and what happens to the ones who didn't get picked?

 

bird
 
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nikolai_42

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Some good questions bird! I was just browsing and had a couple of thoughts for you, rnmomof7 and CCWoody. More of a summing up, really.

If I understand rnmom and CC correctly, there is a group of people (called the elect) that God already knows - even if they don't know Him yet. They will be saved and only they. But where I have questions is where God Himself (through inspired men) says that He desires all men to be saved. Which would seem to me to mean a part of His desires going eternally unsatisfied. Now, maybe that's a misrepresentation - His desire really isn't for all men to be saved. If that's the case, then I can fully see God choosing to save some and not others. Otherwise, it seems God ends up being satisfied with being unsatisfied - because of man's free will. Unless of course those who are eternally ****** are ****** because God predestined them to be that way.

Just some observations. Comments on this? Where is my understanding faulty?
 
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Spiderrr

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Bird you may not assume our answers are in agreement! The effect of one man's offence issued in death for all mankind. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the rigteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

You have noticed that the depths of despair in Adam are met with the abounding grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Where sin abounded, the gift of grace has overflowed beyond..."

"Where sin abounded, the favor has superabounded"

"Sin increased,...grace immeasurably exceeded it..."

The extent of the reconciliation of our God is "much more" and "far more" than the domination of sin. Far more were the loving-kindness of God, and the gift given in the loving-kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, lavished upon the whole race.

Goodspeed translates this as God's mercy...."far more powerfully affected mankind. " The balances are highly stacked in favor of the Lord of Glory! His redemption reaches as far as the curse is found.
 
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rnmomof7

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1st on another thread someone typed out the word and it was not edited..seems it only edits biblical d*amnation:>)


The word for all is the greek word PAS . It does not always mean all without exception.
In the case of the the word all in regard to salvation jesus was addressing Jews that thought they had a lock on beineg his chosen people..So when jesus said "all" they would have understood that meant non Jews..He was telling them they no longer were the exclusive nation of God they had been.

There are many biblical examples of the word being used to delinate a sub group ..like some of each kind.
The example I uses is that I have 7 adult children. Only 3 live in my area. So when I say to my mother that "all " the kids are coming tomorrow, she understands I do not really mean ALL I meant the local all a subset of the greater all.

PAS

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types
++++
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption
 
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FineLinen

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Rnmomof7, there are 4664 verses of the Ancient Words containing all in them. In the following New Covenant words could you please identify which do not really mean all and which alls you would like to replace with the word some?

All does not mean all! "It depends what is, is" (W.J. Clinton)

"That He, in all things may occupy the foremost place...and He is therefore, justly called the Lord of all." (Col. 1:18 )

All does not mean all?

Acts 3:20,21

And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of all things (when all things are put right)"

Col. 1:19,20

"For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell. And having made peace through the blood of His cross by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself."

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when He all things shall be subdued unto Him then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him that God may be all in all."

1 Cor. 15:22

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

1 Cor. 15:25,27

"For He must reign until He hath put all enemies under His feet...For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him."

Rev. 5:13

"And every/ pas creature which is in heaven and on earth, and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Romans 11:32

"For God has consigned all men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon all."

Romans 11:36

"For of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

Eph. 4:10

"Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above all heavens, that He might fill all things with His Presence."

John 5:28

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

1 Timothy 2:4

"For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:6

"For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of all to be testified in due time."

2 Cor. 5:15

"For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for all, then were all dead; And that His purpose in dying for all was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life."

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were all things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and all the powers of Heaven)....all things were created by Him, and for Him (all were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand (has given Him control over everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually.

Heb. 1:2

"God...hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe (whom he has appointed heir of all things).

"The truths that seem to us irreconcilable only because our finite minds cannot understand the Infinite, must never be allowed by our faulty apprehension of the Eternal counsels of God to hinder unquestioning faith in the ancient words of Divine utterings."  FineLinen 47:3   

  

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/p/jpaidall.htm

 
 
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CCWoody

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3rd April 2003 at 11:09 AM nikolai_42 said this in Post #153

So, rnmomof7, are you saying that you don't believe God does desire every single man to be saved? Not talking hard results here, but God's desire.

I just saw your posts.  I'll try and answer your previous one regarding the 1 Ti 2:1-4 cite tonight, but to answer this one:  Yes!  God does not desire the salvation of every single man without exception.

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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bird

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3rd April 2003 at 10:05 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #157



Don't mean to stick your wings together..just wondered the denomination?? Methodist, presbyterian,Wesleyan?


i've had an eclectic denominational background, consisting of time spent in several different denominations...never been a member of a presbyterian church however.

 

bird
 
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Ragman

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2nd April 2003 at 10:31 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #131



Do you believe that God is a liar? Would he send into the flames of hell men that the blood of Christ washed clean? Does God demand double payment from some men?

Woody:

 

Do I believe God is a liar?  No, He said the He reconciled the world to Himself in Christ and I believe He did.  Would He send into the flames of hell men that the blood of Christ washed clean?  As a good friend has said, "Our God is a consuming fire".  Not only would He allow people to be sent into the fire, He will keep them there until every bit of dross in consumed.  Does God demand double payment from some men?  No, God doesn't demand payment at all.  The problem is not God needing to paid off.  The problem is that we are sinners and need to be healed.
 
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Ragman

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<DIR>5:15 But not as the offence, so also <I>is</I> the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, <I>which is</I> by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one <I>judgment came</I> upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one <I>the free gift came</I> upon all men unto justification of life.

v. 18 defines what "many" means.&nbsp; It means all.&nbsp;

Through one offence many/all are made dead and judgment comes upon all men to condemnation.&nbsp; Then the grace of God and the gift of grace, and&nbsp;righteousness&nbsp;came abounded to many/all through&nbsp;the One man

If you are asserting that the many does not mean all men fell in Adam then those are not in need of redemption through Christ.</DIR>
 
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