Predestination? Doesn't God want all to be saved?

~Anastasia~ · Sep 2, 2014

Just curious about something?

For those who believe that God predestines some to be saved, and by default or design chooses condemnation for others, how do you reconcile such verses as the one that says "For God is patient with us, desiring that all men come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved"?

How can God simultaneously desire all to be saved, while overriding His own desires and choosing some to be condemned?

I realize that to allow free will while equating foreknowledge with predestination will answer this question. But if you believe God actively selects the saved and unsaved Himself, how does that work?

Thank you.

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2014

Kylissa said:
Just curious about something?

For those who believe that God predestines some to be saved, and by default or design chooses condemnation for others, how do you reconcile such verses as the one that says "For God is patient with us, desiring that all men come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved"?

How can God simultaneously desire all to be saved, while overriding His own desires and choosing some to be condemned?

I realize that to allow free will while equating foreknowledge with predestination will answer this question. But if you believe God actively selects the saved and unsaved Himself, how does that work?

Thank you.

2 Peter 3 "God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

The Calvinist model of predestination is refuted by 2Peter 3 since all are not saved - yet it is God's will that they all be saved.

in Christ,

Bob

~Anastasia~ · Sep 2, 2014

Thank you.

I'm sure those who believe in this must have a way to deal with what I would see as an inconsistency in their faith.

I was just hoping to hear how that is done? It's something I've never found an answer to and can't figure out on my own.

Mama Kidogo · Sep 2, 2014

Kylissa said:
Thank you.

I'm sure those who believe in this must have a way to deal with what I would see as an inconsistency in their faith.

I was just hoping to hear how that is done? It's something I've never found an answer to and can't figure out on my own.

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2014

Kylissa said:
Thank you.

I'm sure those who believe in this must have a way to deal with what I would see as an inconsistency in their faith.

I was just hoping to hear how that is done? It's something I've never found an answer to and can't figure out on my own.

The most common solution that they use is "all does not mean all in 2Peter 3... whole world does not mean whole world in 1John 2:2" etc.

in Christ,

Bob

~Anastasia~ · Sep 2, 2014

BobRyan said:
The most common solution that they use is "all does not mean all in 2Peter 3... whole world does not mean whole world in 1John 2:2" etc.

in Christ,

Bob

I've heard many say that John 3:16 does not refer to everyone in the world but only the elect.

I was hoping to get an answer from someone whose theology included this, because I'd rather get it straight from them than how others perceive their doctrine. Usually I am quickly corrected for any errors I make regarding Predestination.

Hopefully someone will show up.

Thank you though, Bob Ryan. Perhaps that is the only answer?

bbbbbbb · Sep 2, 2014

BobRyan said:
2 Peter 3 "God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

The Calvinist model of predestination is refuted by 2Peter 3 since all are not saved - yet it is God's will that they all be saved.

in Christ,

Bob

So, are you a universalist?

Hentenza · Sep 2, 2014

BobRyan said:
2 Peter 3 "God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

The Calvinist model of predestination is refuted by 2Peter 3 since all are not saved - yet it is God's will that they all be saved.

in Christ,

Bob

Did God fail?

Hentenza · Sep 2, 2014

Kylissa said:
Just curious about something?

For those who believe that God predestines some to be saved, and by default or design chooses condemnation for others, how do you reconcile such verses as the one that says "For God is patient with us, desiring that all men come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved"?

How can God simultaneously desire all to be saved, while overriding His own desires and choosing some to be condemned?

I realize that to allow free will while equating foreknowledge with predestination will answer this question. But if you believe God actively selects the saved and unsaved Himself, how does that work?

Thank you.

Hi Kylissa,

What does the bolded portion in your post mean? Could you explain please?

Mama Kidogo · Sep 2, 2014

bbbbbbb said:
So, are you a universalist?

His icon says SDA.

Johnnz · Sep 2, 2014

Predestination derived from some wrong exegesis. It's an unnecessary doctrine.

John
NZ

Mama Kidogo · Sep 2, 2014

Johnnz said:
Predestination derived from some wrong exegesis. It's an unnecessary doctrine.

John
NZ

Derived from Calvin. Goes a bit beyond "unnecessary".

~Anastasia~ · Sep 2, 2014

Hentenza said:
Hi Kylissa,

What does the bolded portion in your post mean? Could you explain please?

Sure.

What I meant is that I often hear predestination explained as foreknowledge alone. God does not CHOOSE who is to be saved, but He just simply already knows who will be. Which makes "predestination" something of a misnomer and implies something that is not intended (God choosing who is saved and who is damned.).

If God allows free will - man to choose God, or to reject Him - then it is man's decision that leads to salvation or condemnation. God in this case simply knows who will ultimately choose Him.

Which leaves no inconsistency. God may WISH for all to be saved, but if He will not override our free will and force salvation, then His will can be thwarted.

There is no theological problem reconciling this.

I'm looking for the ones that hold that God actually chooses for mankind, truly predestining some to salvation, and some to condemnation.

Albion · Sep 2, 2014

Kylissa said:
Just curious about something?

For those who believe that God predestines some to be saved, and by default or design chooses condemnation for others, how do you reconcile such verses as the one that says "For God is patient with us, desiring that all men come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved"?

How can God simultaneously desire all to be saved, while overriding His own desires and choosing some to be condemned?

I realize that to allow free will while equating foreknowledge with predestination will answer this question. But if you believe God actively selects the saved and unsaved Himself, how does that work?

Thank you.

I think God would prefer it if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned and the whole human race were not in peril, don't you? But it's not going to happen, no matter which church we belong to and which side of this issue we stand on.

The best answer to your question, though, may be to point out that--as with so many other theological issues that divide Christians--there are verses that seem to say one thing and there are also verses that seem to say the opposite. To take just one of them, on either side of the issue, is not a valid way to settle any of these disputes.

~Anastasia~ · Sep 2, 2014

Albion said:
I think God would prefer it if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned and the whole human race were not in peril, don't you? But it's not going to happen, no matter which church we belong to and which side of this issue we stand on.

The best answer to your question, though, may be to point out that--as with so many other theological issues that divide Christians--there are verses that seem to say one thing and there are also verses that seem to say the opposite. To take just one of them, on either side of the issue, is not a valid way to settle any of these disputes.

That is certainly true (that pulling out single scriptures can lead to wrong theology).

I'm not actually looking to debate the issue. I'm just curious how those who hold to it explain the seeming inconsistency?

Hentenza · Sep 2, 2014

Kylissa said:
Sure.

What I meant is that I often hear predestination explained as foreknowledge alone. God does not CHOOSE who is to be saved, but He just simply already knows who will be. Which makes "predestination" something of a misnomer and implies something that is not intended (God choosing who is saved and who is damned.).

If God allows free will - man to choose God, or to reject Him - then it is man's decision that leads to salvation or condemnation. God in this case simply knows who will ultimately choose Him.

Which leaves no inconsistency. God may WISH for all to be saved, but if He will not override our free will and force salvation, then His will can be thwarted.

There is no theological problem reconciling this.

I'm looking for the ones that hold that God actually chooses for mankind, truly predestining some to salvation, and some to condemnation.

Ok thanks. I agree with you that God is not sitting up in His throne in heaven choosing who is in and who is not.

I have another question based on God's foreknowledge from your answer above. When does God know if a person will choose Him or not?

Marbleyes902 · Sep 2, 2014

"how does that work?"

"I was just hoping to hear how that is done? It's something I've never found an answer to and can't figure out on my own."

Isa 55:8-9 : For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways", says the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."

go outside tonight and take some time just meditating on that one verse.....

Isa 40:28 : Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
The everlasting God, the Lord,
The Creator of the ends of the earth,
Neither faints nor is weary.
His understanding is unsearchable.

So you are right.... you can't figure it out on your own. No one can. But if you put your trust in Him he will reveal the truth to you.

James 1: 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

For me, I know that He knew me from before I was conceived, and he knows my end, my eternal destiny, he knew every choice I would make before I made it, just as he knew every wrong choice made by those he knew would end up rejecting him, and suffering eternal damnation. This isn't about him and what he knows or doesn't. It's about us. We have to actually live a life in order to be fairly judged. If God simply looked through history and cherry picked those that would be his, and simply never created the lost, where would the justice be?
I know this is a personal way of trying to fit into my mind, what simply cannot be understood. God is eternal and his ways are eternal. We are very mortal, and completely blind to the reality of eternity. Trying to figure God out will never bring peace, trusting in Him will.

Radagast · Sep 2, 2014

BobRyan said:
The most common solution that they use is "all does not mean all

Many people feel that "all people" in certain verses means "all kinds of people."

That seems the best way to make sense of, for example, 1 Timothy 4:10: "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe."

Johnnz · Sep 2, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
Derived from Calvin. Goes a bit beyond "unnecessary".

Calvin's exegesis was incorrect.

John
NZ

bbbbbbb · Sep 2, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
His icon says SDA.

Yes, I know that, but his post indicated that he personally believes that God will save all of humanity.

Predestination? Doesn't God want all to be saved?

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