Predestination = Arrogance

[Jedah]

Ive been looking at predestination for a while now , and I have met many people who believe in the doctrine of predestination . I have noticed that most people who claim that god chooses whoever he wishes outside of our control and that they just so happen to be the lucky ones are very arrogant in nature .

Thinking about it ,the doctrine isnt really any differant then what the Nazi's believed - that the aryan race was chosen by god and thus superior . I get this vibe from predstination believers as well , that they have been chosen and are thus superior and deserving of heaven .

Am I saying this means the doctrine is somehow false ? No . Im just saying that to me it seems that it practically requires arrogance to actually believe it . It also seems to contradict everything Jesus stood for . For a while Ive been trying to determine if this is a strawman , and I really cant see how it is .

EDIT : To clarify , Im mainly aiming at the belief of predestination and the belief that the believers in it are the predestined ones / chosen ones .

 

[Code-Monkey]

Ive been looking at predestination for a while now , and I have met many people who believe in the doctrine of predestination . I have noticed that most people who claim that god chooses whoever he wishes outside of our control and that they just so happen to be the lucky ones are very arrogant in nature .

Thinking about it ,the doctrine isnt really any differant then what the Nazi's believed - that the aryan race was chosen by god and thus superior . I get this vibe from predstination believers as well , that they have been chosen and are thus superior and deserving of heaven .

Am I saying this means the doctrine is somehow false ? No . Im just saying that to me it seems that it practically requires arrogance to actually believe it . It also seems to contradict everything Jesus stood for . For a while Ive been trying to determine if this is a strawman , and I really cant see how it is .

Well, I don't believe in predestination, nor do I think it's consistent with any other biblical theology. But putting that aside for this thread...

If I'm reading you right, you're not saying that through experiences with predestination-believers you find them very arrogant, right? Rather you're saying you find their beliefs very arrogant?

What about pantheism? I'm certainly no expert on it, but isn't the belief in part that everything is God? That we are part of God? That might seem a bit arrogant to some to think that we are actually a real part of God. Although in this case it would be saying everyone and everything else is too. So there is that distinction.

Where are you wanting to go with this thread? Don't all religions or philosophical worldviews make claims that say they are right and others are wrong? Any truth-claim does that, doesn't it? Wouldn't that be equally as "arrogant"?

 

[Jedah]

What about pantheism? I'm certainly no expert on it, but isn't the belief in part that everything is God? That we are part of God? That might seem a bit arrogant to some to think that we are actually a real part of God.

This is not the point of pantheism . Its not arrogantly saying we are gods , its best described as we are all connected through a spiritual connection and everything together makes up a god . It isnt much differant then the star wars belief in "the force" if that helps you understand .

Also part of the definition of arrogance is that your placing yourself above someone . Predestination places all the believers above everyone else , and is thus arrogant . Pantheism literally places everyone and everything as equals , and is quite possibly the furthest you can get from being arrogant .

As for arrogance , I find both the doctrine and believers to be arrogant .

Where are you wanting to go with this thread? Don't all religions or philosophical worldviews make claims that say they are right and others are wrong? Any truth-claim does that, doesn't it? Wouldn't that be equally as "arrogant"?

You seem somewhat confused , so I will try to be nice . In a word - no . This has nothing to do with saying "Your wrong Im right" Predestionation specifically places everyone else as inferior . Sure , when you believe something at all your saying that the opposite is wrong , but that is completely differant then actually placing everyone who disagrees in a position of inferiority .

By your logic , believing that everyone is equal is just as arrogant as believing that you are superior , because by believing one they are "arrogantly" claiming the other is wrong . I think the main problem here may be that you dont understand what arrogance is .

 

[Code-Monkey]

Also part of the definition of arrogance is that your placing yourself above someone . Predestination places all the believers above everyone else , and is thus arrogant . Pantheism literally places everyone and everything as equals , and is quite possibly the furthest you can get from being arrogant .

Ok... this is the part I was suggesting might be arrogant on the part of the pantheist. But arrogance might not be the right word. I don't mean that a pantheists might be placing himself above other people, I mean that he may be making more of himself than he really is.... so in a sense he might be telling God that really God is no better than himself.

But this isn't a beef of mine. I don't really care that much about whether or not it's an "arrogant" claim, I'm more concerned with it's a correct claim. Because as you said (if I understand you right), it's not arrogant to in fact be correct and to tell someone else that they are wrong if in fact they are wrong. Someone could do it arrogantly in their manner of saying it perhaps, but there is nothing wrong in the fact of being correct and someone else being incorrect.

The closest thing (as far as I can tell) that might approach arrogance from the predestination side is if the person who believes they were predestined does so because they are simply better than other people. But at that point we seem to have moved beyond predestination and into other areas.

 

[Jedah]

I mean that he may be making more of himself than he really is.... so in a sense he might be telling God that really God is no better than himself.

Your still misunderstanding pantheism . Universe = god , and everyone is a part of the universe and thus part of god . We wouldnt be any more or less important if the universe didnt = god because the cosmic importance part doesnt matter . Again , its much like believing in the force . The problem here is that part of your definition of god is a superior supreme being ( not so in pantheism ) and you are forgetting to drop this definition when you examine other beliefs .

Your also still misunderstanding why I single predestination out . The very belief itself means you were chosen to be in a superior position over others .

 

[Danhalen]

You seem to be forgetting that people whom believe in predestination are not necessarily of the thought that they are the elect. Belief in predestination does not entail belief of being in the right.

 

[Code-Monkey]

Your still misunderstanding pantheism . Universe = god , and everyone is a part of the universe and thus part of god . We wouldnt be any more or less important if the universe didnt = god because the cosmic importance part doesnt matter . Again , its much like believing in the force . The problem here is that part of your definition of god is a superior supreme being ( not so in pantheism ) and you are forgetting to drop this definition when you examine other beliefs .

Your also still misunderstanding why I single predestination out . The very belief itself means you were chosen to be in a superior position over others .

No... I think I understand. What I am saying is that if the idea that God is a superior, supreme being, then to claim that actually he is not AND that you are on his same level is quite a BIG claim.

But as Danhalen pointed out, believing in predestination doesn't require that you think you are on the "right" side of the fence. You could believe that God chose you to be on the wrong side and to be an example for all others.

 

[Jedah]

You seem to be forgetting that people whom believe in predestination are not necessarily of the thought that they are the elect. Belief in predestination does not entail belief of being in the right.

Thanks for pointing that out , I edited the OP to clarify .

No... I think I understand. What I am saying is that if the idea that God is a superior, supreme being, then to claim that actually he is not AND that you are on his same level is quite a BIG claim.

Sorry but you really do not seem to understand at all . If anything your confusing yourself even further . If you wish to get it I suggest you read this post very carefully ... Dont just skim it and assume your getting the jist of it .

Whe your examining another religion you first need to realize that definitions in one religion are differant in another . Buddhists do not believe what islamics believe and if a buddhist was to judge islam based on the buddhist definition of enlightenment then the buddhist would essentially have created a strawman . This is what your doing to pantheism . Your taking your christian definition of god ( Supreme , ominmax , ect ) and your using that definition in order to help you understand pantheism - which is where you commit the strawman fallacy .

Your thinking process ends up looking like this :
God is supreme and all powerfull . pantheists believe they are a part of this supreme and all powerfull being and that in fact he really isnt that great at all and that they are on the same level as god ! The nerve of those arrogant pantheists !

Your even taking the strawman you just created a step further by mistakenly looking at the belief that god is not superior as an attack on your gods position in the universe . You interpret this as arrogant . The problem is you have judged pantheist beliefs based on something that pantheists dont actually believe

If you do not commit the strawman and look at pantheism through its own view it makes more sense . Here is what the reasoning looks like :
Pantheists believe god is the universe and that there is a force driving it . Since they are a part of this universe they are a part of this force that we call god .

As you can see , once you look at it for what we actually believe the problem of believing one is superior/supreme/great that would come out of believing one is the christian god goes away .

 

[Code-Monkey]

Your thinking process ends up looking like this :
God is supreme and all powerfull . pantheists believe they are a part of this supreme and all powerfull being and that in fact he really isnt that great at all and that they are on the same level as god ! The nerve of those arrogant pantheists !

Your even taking the strawman you just created a step further by mistakenly looking at the belief that god is not superior as an attack on your gods position in the universe . You interpret this as arrogant . The problem is you have judged pantheist beliefs based on something that pantheists dont actually believe

For the love of communication... I understand what you are saying. I've understood it from the first post. We're on a christian-based web site. I'm taking the stance that if one were to assume that christianity is true and there really is a supreme God, than the pantheistic view that says it is god, both raises itself higher and degrades the supreme God to being something lower. That could be viewed as somewhat of an arrogant response.

 

[Jedah]

I'm taking the stance that if one were to assume that christianity is true and there really is a supreme God, than the pantheistic view that says it is god, both raises itself higher and degrades the supreme God to being something lower. That could be viewed as somewhat of an arrogant response.

Again , your claiming that you get it but the rest of your post is telling me that you really dont get it . When examining another religion , dont take the stance that some other religion is true . The problem lies in that your making a comparison and in doing so commiting the fallacy of a strawman argument .

 

[Jetgirl]

Ive been looking at predestination for a while now , and I have met many people who believe in the doctrine of predestination . I have noticed that most people who claim that god chooses whoever he wishes outside of our control and that they just so happen to be the lucky ones are very arrogant in nature .

.

The only comment on this that I really can make, because I'm not familliar with predestiniation in the scriptures is:

Isn't it odd that no one thinks they are predestined to go to hell? Everyone thinks they are predestined to go to heaven.

I would think that you really wouldn't know until you got there. Kind of like a cosmic fortune cookie.

 

[lawtonfogle]

predestination, it does yet does not exist.

how, it is like the uncertainty principle, we humans can never know the exact place and velocity of the electron, but (in a Christian viewpoint) God does. We must accept the electron takes all posible paths because as far as humans are concerned, it does. Yet God knows the path it follows. The same principle applies to predestination and free will. On the 'God view' of things, what we are going to do is already determined, yet, one the human view, we have free will and a choice of which of us go to Heaven and which of us go to Hell. This is the paradox that forms when we look outside of time.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

If you mean God knows what we will choose before we choose it, that isn't really predestination. Predestination is God made you abd set you a path and you have no choice. Belief in predestination, when examined, say that God creates some (most if you say all non christians go to hell) people for the express purpose of burning them in hell.