Predestination and Free Will

[Patashu]

The thing is, if it can be known for fact that X will do Y then X is forced to do Y whether or not it is predicted or not, since if it can be predicted as 100% fact that way it obviously can't be predicted as 100% fact any other way.

If God has perfect knowledge of the future then the universe is deterministic as otherwise how could he have perfect knowledge of the future if it has not been determined yet?

I guess you could always have some quantum-god-mechanics type spinoff where the future is nondeterministic unless God decides to look at some aspect of the future which then fixes it in stone. Ponder the consequences of that kind of structure.

EDIT: Oh, and concerning 'warning' prophecies; if they never come to pass (are avoided), how do we know that it wasn't deterministic and guaranteed to not pass anyway?

 

[Idea]

The thing is, if it can be known for fact that X will do Y then X is forced to do Y whether or not it is predicted or not, since if it can be predicted as 100% fact that way it obviously can't be predicted as 100% fact any other way.

If God has perfect knowledge of the future then the universe is deterministic as otherwise how could he have perfect knowledge of the future if it has not been determined yet?

I guess you could always have some quantum-god-mechanics type spinoff where the future is nondeterministic unless God decides to look at some aspect of the future which then fixes it in stone. Ponder the consequences of that kind of structure.

EDIT: Oh, and concerning 'warning' prophecies; if they never come to pass (are avoided), how do we know that it wasn't deterministic and guaranteed to not pass anyway?

The point is, if the future is set in stone, (if - I do not know that it is, or what "future" is with no time) it is not set in stone by God. We dictate our own future - not God. Do we have free agency? Are we just the way we are, and nothing can change it? The atonement gives us options that we did not have before - through the atonement, we can actually change who we are. We have free will, God has set us free to change and choose whatever we will.

Gal 4:1 STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[Washington]

Honestly, I do not know if God chooses to see it all or not.

So you really didn't mean it when you said, "the point is, God knows what we will do." Is there anything else you've said that you don't mean? Because it's pretty hard to give credence to anything someone says when it's likely they don't mean it. And, the predestination we're talking about has nothing to do with uttered prophecies.

We are the ones who determine what our future will be...

And I agree, but only in the sense that we are the agents (a specific instance) of a continuing chain of cause and effect. Our "determination" of anything is simply the next cause resulting from the accumulated effects that bear on us up to that point. We determine the next effect only because we cannot do any differently. If we could do differently then we have to ask why we didn't. And whatever that reason may be is the inevitable cause of our doing X rather than Y, which in turn was created by previously accumulated effects. The only other option is that our "determinations" are utterly random, springing out of nowhere. So far, no one has been able to show how our acts can be anything but determined or utterly random. And simply shouting out "Free Will" is not good enough. If the will is somehow free of all cause and randomness---the common definition in this context--- I invite you or anyone else to explain its operation.

The point is, if the future is set in stone, (if - I do not know that it is, or what "future" is with no time) it is not set in stone by God.

The future is set in stone because it is the result of all the preceding cause/effect operations.

We dictate our own future - not God. Do we have free agency? Are we just the way we are, and nothing can change it?

Yes. You may think you can change it by deciding differently, but the "deciding differently" is actually excluded by those causes that led to the actual outcome.

The atonement gives us options that we did not have before - through the atonement, we can actually change who we are. We have free will, God has set us free to change and choose whatever we will.

Might be a nice comforting thought, but logic says otherwise. The choosing "whatever we will" is actually doing what has been determined by all the cause/effect events that led up to the so-called "choosing." They determine that one, and only one, outcome is possible. Of course, if there's such an animal as true free will then I invite you or anyone else to explain its operation. Exactly in what manner does the will operate free of all cause? And, I don't think Bible verses are going to cut it.

 

[Patashu]

The point is, if the future is set in stone, (if - I do not know that it is, or what "future" is with no time) it is not set in stone by God. We dictate our own future - not God. Do we have free agency? Are we just the way we are, and nothing can change it? The atonement gives us options that we did not have before - through the atonement, we can actually change who we are. We have free will, God has set us free to change and choose whatever we will.

Gal 4:1 STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

If the future is set in stone, even if it's not by God, how can we have free choice since we can only achieve one outcome?

 

[Idea]

Might be a nice comforting thought, but logic says otherwise. The choosing "whatever we will" is actually doing what has been determined by all the cause/effect events that led up to the so-called "choosing." They determine that one, and only one, outcome is possible. Of course, if there's such an animal as true free will then I invite you or anyone else to explain its operation. Exactly in what manner does the will operate free of all cause? And, I don't think Bible verses are going to cut it.

To have free will you have to escape cause / effect... you have to escape time... total self-free will cannot be created, if it is created, it is not really free will... I am LDS, there are scriptures... but not in the Bible... well, a few in the Bible..

Agency
Gen. 2:16 Of every tree ... thou mayest freely eat
Gen. 4:7 if thou doest not well
Deut. 11:27 blessing, if ye obey
Deut. 30:19 therefore choose life
Josh. 24:15 choose ... whom ye will serve
1 Kgs. 18:21 if the Lord be God, follow him
Prov. 1:29 did not choose the fear of the Lord
Matt. 26:39 not as I will, but as thou wilt
John 5:30 I seek not mine own will

Here is what I believe:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

the potter did not make the clay... but we can become His creation...

The only way to have real free will is if part of us is self-existent. Everyone can choose to believe in what they will... this is the only scenario that made since to me - Either God is perfect and did not create what we see around us... or He is not perfect as evidenced by us who need to be refined... and through the atonement, we can actually be changed...

 

[Loathing]

My questions –
If God knows that Jeremiah is going to be obedient to Him before he was born, does that mean that Jeremiah is predestined?
Does this mean that we are all predestined to a certain life – one a sinner and one a saint?
Does this mean that God has perfect knowledge of the future?

If God does have this perfect knowledge, then how can we have free will?
Do we have free will?

Comments?

1. Yes, we are all predestined.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Our free will is very limited. For instance, can God sin? It is not in his nature to sin and he is literally incapable of sinning. God does not have free will to do anything. He can't create another being like himself. God has always been so if he created something like him, it would have always been.
5. Not really. We have a limited free will when it comes to our eternal destiny. What if you were born in a tribe in the middle of Africa and never heard about God or Jesus or anything? What if you were born mentally retarted and were inacapable of understanding anything presented to you? Who decides where you are born or what mental state you are in? God. We don't choose. It says in the Bible that the Father has to draw us. If we are not drawn, then we cannot come to Jesus and ultimately be saved. God knows exactly everything that will happen. It says in the Bible he already has our names written in the book of life.

 

[Idea]

1. Yes, we are all predestined.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Our free will is very limited.

We can limit our free will by sinning, but if we follow God, our free will is limitless.

For instance, can God sin? It is not in his nature to sin and he is literally incapable of sinning.

Sin takes away free will - to be an addict, to be impure... to not sin is to have limitless free will.​

God does not have free will to do anything. He can't create another being like himself.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Ps. 82:6 (1, 6);
1 GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do ajustice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they awalk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


John 10:34 (34–36);
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

1 Cor. 8:6 (5–6);
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ie – there are many gods, but only one of them is ours – just as there are many fathers on Earth, but only one of them is our father…

God has always been so if he created something like him, it would have always been.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to bact for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.



Think about it - either
God IS perfect - and did not create us 100% out of nothingness,
or
He is not perfect, as evidenced by us...

Free will only exists if we are self-existent... Free will cannot be created - it would be God's will - nothing but a big pile of dominos, if we were 100% his creation...
God is perfect only if part of us is self-existent.... we have free will only if part of us is self-existent..... He has adopted us, mercifully, He is Loving - but will not take away our free will... as for who we are? We are being tested right now, power will not be given to those who would abuse it...



Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The potter did not create the clay... but we can become His creation... He will not take away our free will though...

Rom 8:
15 For ye have not received the spirit of abondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

John 1:
1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

It does not say God was alone, nor does it say He made everything... IF it was made, He made it... however, not everything is "made" ...

read Gen again... does not say created man - formed him, then placed a spirit in - breathed in life - not created it, placed it in...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Eccl. 12:7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
Return means we have been there before…
Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee
Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
Eph. 1:4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

Our life did not start with our birth here on Earth…

Eph. 1:4 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
Eph. 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself
2 Thes. 2:13 God hath from the beginning chosen you
2 Tim. 1:9 called us ... before the world began
1 Pet. 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God
1 Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world

God molded intelligences into spirits, then placed spirits who wanted to progress into bodies... He is our Father as He formed our spirits... He did not created us out of nothingness... we are being formed...

5. Not really. We have a limited free will when it comes to our eternal destiny. What if you were born in a tribe in the middle of Africa and never heard about God or Jesus or anything? What if you were born mentally retarted and were inacapable of understanding anything presented to you? Who decides where you are born or what mental state you are in? God. We don't choose. It says in the Bible that the Father has to draw us. If we are not drawn, then we cannot come to Jesus and ultimately be saved. God knows exactly everything that will happen. It says in the Bible he already has our names written in the book of life.

We chose to come here, all will have equal opportunity to choose everlasting life...


23 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.

Work is currently underway in temples across the world...


16 And now, in relation to the baptism for the dead, I will give you another quotation of Paul, 1 Corinthians 15:29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?
17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the gfoundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto hbabes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.
19 Now, what do we hear in the gospel which we have received? A voice of gladness! A voice of mercy from heaven; and a voice of truth out of the earth; glad tidings for the dead; a voice of gladness for the living and the dead; glad tidings of great joy. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that bring glad tidings of good things, and that say unto Zion: Behold, thy God reigneth! As the dews of Carmel, so shall the knowledge of God descend upon them!


Salvation for the Dead (see also Baptism; Baptism for the Dead; Genealogy and Temple Work; Salvation)
Isa. 24:22 in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited
Isa. 42:7 bring out the prisoners from the prison
Isa. 49:9 (1 Ne. 21:9) say to the prisoners, Go forth
Isa. 61:1 (Luke 4:18) proclaim liberty to the captives
Obad. 1:21 saviours shall come up on mount Zion
Zech. 9:11 sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit
Mal. 4:6 (Luke 1:17; 3 Ne. 25:6; D&C 2:2; 110:15; JS-H 1:39) turn ... the heart of the children to their fathers
Matt. 16:19 (D&C 128:8) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven
Luke 4:18 preach deliverance to the captives
John 5:25 dead shall hear the voice of the Son
Rom. 14:9 Lord both of the dead and living
1 Cor. 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1 Cor. 15:29 why are they then baptized for the dead
Heb. 11:40 (D&C 128:15) that they without us should not be made perfect
1 Pet. 3:19 preached unto the spirits in prison
1 Pet. 4:6 gospel preached also to them that are dead

 

[elman]

Is this Bizarro-Philosophy? I distinctly remember you telling me that "I" is a cause, and then me asking you what "I" is.

When did you challenge me to provide an example of a cause? I can tell you what might have caused the dinosaurs to die en masse at various levels of abstraction. Is that good enough?

Stepping away from the issue of our having free will or not, if we do not have free will, is there an advantage to our understanding we do not have free will? If we do not have free will, can we chose to understand we do not have free will? Will we live different lives or make different choices if we understand we do not have free will? How will our lives appear different to others if we understand we do not have free will?

 

[Idea]

Stepping away from the issue of our having free will or not, if we do not have free will, is there an advantage to our understanding we do not have free will? If we do not have free will, can we chose to understand we do not have free will? Will we live different lives or make different choices if we understand we do not have free will? How will our lives appear different to others if we understand we do not have free will?

The portrait of the self-made victim – he made me do it, she makes me so mad, it’s not my fault…. Few take real ownership of their free will, most are others puppets, copycats, walking to the beat of society, not thinking for themselves, or acting for themselves – acting to impress others, or out of fear of others… It is a rare exception for someone to actually use their free will… “will” – willpower – something you have to consciously will yourself to do.

Luke 21:19 … possess ye your souls.

1 Cro 13:
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part;but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.​

 

[TeddyKGB]

Stepping away from the issue of our having free will or not, if we do not have free will, is there an advantage to our understanding we do not have free will? If we do not have free will, can we chose to understand we do not have free will?

In a very trivial sense. We can "choose" inasmuch as there is more than one mutually exclusive thing we may believe at any moment. But as per usual, I can't ascribe any meaningful activity to the process of choosing.

Will we live different lives or make different choices if we understand we do not have free will? How will our lives appear different to others if we understand we do not have free will?

That requires the type of foresight only present in fantasy.

Personally, I don't seem to be able to think like the simplistic automaton we often imagine the free-will-less being to be. I still behave as if I make "choices," but it all falls apart when I examine choice with any kind of critical eye.

 

[elman]

In a very trivial sense. We can "choose" inasmuch as there is more than one mutually exclusive thing we may believe at any moment. But as per usual, I can't ascribe any meaningful activity to the process of choosing.

That requires the type of foresight only present in fantasy.

Personally, I don't seem to be able to think like the simplistic automaton we often imagine the free-will-less being to be. I still behave as if I make "choices," but it all falls apart when I examine choice with any kind of critical eye.

I am seeing in that response no advantage to recognizing the lack of free will on our part, and no change in our behavior. To me this makes the discussion purly esoteric. Do you agree?

 

[TeddyKGB]

I am seeing in that response no advantage to recognizing the lack of free will on our part, and no change in our behavior. To me this makes the discussion purly esoteric. Do you agree?

What I keep coming back to is that I simply don't know what free will is or even what it could be. As far as I can tell, all we have are a bunch of words that at best describe the absence of something; to wit: "free will" is often said to be the choice in the absence of external coercion. Well, great. That tells me what free will isn't. I still don't know what "choice" is.

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
I am seeing in that response no advantage to recognizing the lack of free will on our part, and no change in our behavior. To me this makes the discussion purly esoteric. Do you agree?

What I keep coming back to is that I simply don't know what free will is or even what it could be. As far as I can tell, all we have are a bunch of words that at best describe the absence of something; to wit: "free will" is often said to be the choice in the absence of external coercion. Well, great. That tells me what free will isn't. I still don't know what "choice" is.

I am seeing agreement with my statment. Am I misunderstanding?

 

[Washington]

TeddyKGB,

The problem is, the concept of free will is never explained except in terms of what it is not: Free will is a will not operating by means of cause/effect. But just how it does operate is conveniently never explained. For Christians, or any free willer, it's enough just to throw the term on the table, stand back with arms folded, and say, There!

Hardly an argument for it, but then free willers don't expect to defend their claim anyway. It's more of a "That's the way it is, and because we say it is we expect you to agree," kind of attitude.

Go figure.

 

[elman]

TeddyKGB,

The problem is, the concept of free will is never explained except in terms of what it is not: Free will is a will not operating by means of cause/effect. But just how it does operate is conveniently never explained. For Christians, or any free willer, it's enough just to throw the term on the table, stand back with arms folded, and say, There!

Hardly an argument for it, but then free willers don't expect to defend their claim anyway. It's more of a "That's the way it is, and because we say it is we expect you to agree," kind of attitude.

Go figure.

No for the umtieenth time I am not and never have argued that free will is operating outside of cause and effect. I have consistently argued I am one of the causes and that being the case free will is alive and well. We have pretty well agreed that we cannot agree on that. How do you feel about the point that if there is no free will, it matters not at all in the way we live, since we all live as if we had free will?