Predestination and Free Will

[Lugus]

This post is in reference to Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

One interpretation that I got was that this meant that God knew that Jeremiah would be obedient to Him. This is why God sanctified and ordained him before he was born.

My questions –
If God knows that Jeremiah is going to be obedient to Him before he was born, does that mean that Jeremiah is predestined?
Does this mean that we are all predestined to a certain life – one a sinner and one a saint?
Does this mean that God has perfect knowledge of the future?

If God does have this perfect knowledge, then how can we have free will?
Do we have free will?

Comments?

 

[TeddyKGB]

Free will in a libertarian sense is incoherent. Free will in a compatibilist sense is pointless.

 

[Lugus]

Free will in a libertarian sense is incoherent. Free will in a compatibilist sense is pointless.

I had to look up "compatibilist." I probably shouldn't admit this, but I didn't know what it meant.

For others who are not familiar with this term --
“Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to believe both without being logically inconsistent (people who hold this belief are known as compatibilists).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilist

Thanks!

However, I'm just guessing, but I suspect that there are some people who believe that they are not compatible.

 

[Lugus]

TeddyKGB:
Are you saying that you believe that free will is compatible with predestination?

 

[TeddyKGB]

TeddyKGB:
Are you saying that you believe that free will is compatible with predestination?

Only in some lame apologetic sense that effectively neuters both concepts.

 

[Philothei]

God knows what Jeremiah will do... yet we do have free will... I know this will make no sense .... but still in God's mind it does... God obviously does not 'think' the way we do... Like he says to Job that "are you greater than me? Where you there when I created the earth?" With that logic it is evident that God can also fortell what we will do yet we do maintain our free choice.. ...but we are born with free will to chose... to do either good or bad. God can fortell what we are about to do as he is the all-knoweledgable God. Yet he cannot intervene in our lives and makes decisions for us... The idea that Adam and Eve were 'free' in the paradise ... to chose to accept disobedience or obedience is yet another example of that we are born with free will. Man fell out of choice (it is in scripture) ... from Paradise. He disobeyed God and thus he fell from it. Same with Eve. They turn their back to God and hide out of His sight ....because they were ashamed of their act of disobedience that it was their own wrong doing.

Philothei

 

[Washington]

God knows what Jeremiah will do... yet we do have free will... I know this will make no sense .... but still in God's mind it does... God obviously does not 'think' the way we do... Like he says to Job that "are you greater than me? Where you there when I created the earth?" With that logic it is evident that God can also fortell what we will do yet we do maintain our free choice.. ...but we are born with free will to chose... to do either good or bad. God can fortell what we are about to do as he is the all-knoweledgable God. Yet he cannot intervene in our lives and makes decisions for us... The idea that Adam and Eve were 'free' in the paradise ... to chose to accept disobedience or obedience is yet another example of that we are born with free will. Man fell out of choice (it is in scripture) ... from Paradise. He disobeyed God and thus he fell from it. Same with Eve. They turn their back to God and hide out of His sight ....because they were ashamed of their act of disobedience that it was their own wrong doing.

Philothei

I get a kick out of Christians who claim to know what goes on in god's mind, "I know this will make no sense .... but still in God's mind it does." Or claim to know how his mind operates, "God obviously does not 'think' the way we do." Or what god can do with his mind, "it is evident that God can also fortell what we will do," AND cannot do, "Yet he cannot intervene in our lives and makes decisions for us."

Yes indeed, I do get a kick out of such easy smugness.

 

[Philothei]

This is not what Christians say... rather what God said to Job.... It is biblical... FYI... Since you have all padded down... and you know who God YOU believe in... Anthropomorphic... at best... Why do you bother asking?

What religion are you?

 

[Thekla]

I get a kick out of Christians who claim to know what goes on in god's mind, "I know this will make no sense .... but still in God's mind it does." Or claim to know how his mind operates, "God obviously does not 'think' the way we do." Or what god can do with his mind, "it is evident that God can also fortell what we will do," AND cannot do, "Yet he cannot intervene in our lives and makes decisions for us."

Yes indeed, I do get a kick out of such easy smugness.

perhaps you could describe your objection to the particular theological points in the post

 

[TeddyKGB]

perhaps you could describe your objection to the particular theological points in the post

There are not really any points made. It's right out of the "don't think about it too much" school of apologetics.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Lugus. You had some good replies, and Yes, God does know us from the very beginning, BUT God does Not take our free will from us. God knew that Jeremiah was obedient, and Moses is another one. God knows, yet they have still free will. It took Moses some time before he was ready to become Israels`s great Prophet, but he was obedient without any force or coercion from God. Predestination and Free Will are compatible, God knows us from beginning to end, and God will NOT interfere in our Free Will. I say this humbly and with assurance, Lugus. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Washington]

perhaps you could describe your objection to the particular theological points in the post

I thought that was evident in my reply.


Lugus asked.

If God knows that Jeremiah is going to be obedient to Him before he was born, does that mean that Jeremiah is predestined?​

Does this mean that we are all predestined to a certain life – one a sinner and one a saint?​

Does this mean that God has perfect knowledge of the future?​

If God does have this perfect knowledge, then how can we have free will?​

Do we have free will?​

Comments?​

I assume his request for comments is a request for answers to his questions.

In short his questions come down to:

1. Does god's foreknowledge of an outcome pre-determine that outcome?​

2. Are we all destined to do whatever god has seen? If god sees us as a sinner we have no choice to be otherwise?​

3. Does this mean god's knowledge is perfect?​

4. If he does have perfect knowledge how is free will possible?​

Philothei answers these in part by implying she is privy to certain aspects of god, which I find a bit absurd. I have no problem if someone wants to make an argument to support their claim, but to imply special knowledge of god is not acceptable. It's something I've seen before, and its presumptuousness has always struck me as humorous.


So, my objection is her attempt to convince us of her position by appealing to her unique personal knowledge of god. At least it's knowledge I've never seen supported by any scripture or theology.

 

[Philothei]

I thought that was evident in my reply.


Lugus asked.

If God knows that Jeremiah is going to be obedient to Him before he was born, does that mean that Jeremiah is predestined?​

Does this mean that we are all predestined to a certain life – one a sinner and one a saint?​

Does this mean that God has perfect knowledge of the future?​

If God does have this perfect knowledge, then how can we have free will?​

Do we have free will?​

Comments?​

I assume his request for comments is a request for answers to his questions.

In short his questions come down to:

1. Does god's foreknowledge of an outcome pre-determine that outcome?​

2. Are we all destined to do whatever god has seen? If god sees us as a sinner we have no choice to be otherwise?​

3. Does this mean god's knowledge is perfect?​

4. If he does have perfect knowledge how is free will possible?​

Philothei answers these in part by implying she is privy to certain aspects of god, which I find a bit absurd. I have no problem if someone wants to make an argument to support their claim, but to imply special knowledge of god is not acceptable. It's something I've seen before, and its presumptuousness has always struck me as humorous.


So, my objection is her attempt to convince us of her position by appealing to her unique personal knowledge of god. At least it's knowledge I've never seen supported by any scripture or theology.

I am glad I gave you a good laugh they say that laugh extends life...

Also who are you? Lungus lawyer? And who makes you an athority of what is "valid" and is not?


here is "free will" as expressed by St. Ireneus... I hope you show some more respect to him... as he writes on the subject... Afterall he is a EF of the Church... Does he do have "special knowledge about God"? I would say sure he does... otherwise he would not be considered one of the earliest respected theologians....


Irenaeus on Free Will

Due to the influence of Calvinism drawing upon Augustinian theology the Christian community has been subjected to notion that people are merely puppets effectively devoid of free will; that people are held responsible for things they have no control over. The obvious injustice this imputes to God does not go unnoticed and so Calvin is left with making inherently contradictory statements as "We proved above that something not subject to free choice is nevertheless voluntarily done." John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol 2, ch 5. Of course he proved nothing of the like. For the statement itself is inherently contradictory. "Voluntary" by definition means "Arising from or acting on one's own free will". Yet in contrast to such confusion in thought we find both the authors of the Bible and many early Christian writers much clearer in their thinking.

Irenaeus was an early church father. The apostle John discipled Polycarp. And Polycarp discipled Irenaeus. Here (written about 180 AD) he speaks against what would later become aspects of Calvinist Theology in its denial of the free will. The source can be found at the link provided. This page is a quote of the following two sections of his work:
[SIZE=+0]Chapter XXXVII.-Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Chapter XXXIX.-Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power, by His Own Will and Choice, to Perform God's Commandments, by Doing Which He Avoids the Evils Prepared for the Rebellious.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Another early church father, Ignatius, also makes this statement: "If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice."[/SIZE]
Also Justin Martyr a 2nd Century Christian apologist
CHAP. CXLI.--FREE-WILL IN MEN AND ANGELS. "But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so."



http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/freewill.html

 

[Washington]

I am glad I gave you a good laugh they say that laugh extends life...

Well, not so much a good laugh as a wry chuckle.

Also who are you? Lungus lawyer? And who makes you an athority of what is "valid" and is not?

You put "valid" in quotation marks indicating I used the term. I did not. So, perhaps you might want to rephrase your question and tell us where you think I have set myself up as an authority on whatever you think I believe I'm an authority on.

here is "free will" as expressed by St. Ireneus... I hope you show some more respect to him...

I show everyone respect until they indicate they don't deserve it. And you shouldn't take criticism as disrespect or lack of respect. More often than not they are two very separate things.

. . .as he writes on the subject... Afterall he is a EF of the Church... Does he do have "special knowledge about God"?

He might.

I would say sure he does... otherwise he would not be considered one of the earliest respected theologians....

Sorry, but I don't find that theological standing necessarily equates with a knowledge about any particular subject; although, it very well may be the case in some instances. I'll have to see what you have to say here. . . . .

Irenaeus on Free Will​

Due to the influence of Calvinism drawing upon Augustinian theology the Christian community has been subjected to notion that people are merely puppets effectively devoid of free will; that people are held responsible for things they have no control over. The obvious injustice this imputes to God does not go unnoticed and so Calvin is left with making inherently contradictory statements as "We proved above that something not subject to free choice is nevertheless voluntarily done." John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol 2, ch 5. Of course he proved nothing of the like. For the statement itself is inherently contradictory. "Voluntary" by definition means "Arising from or acting on one's own free will". Yet in contrast to such confusion in thought we find both the authors of the Bible and many early Christian writers much clearer in their thinking. ​

I agree. This position of Calvin, if a true representation, does appear quite contradictory.

Chapter XXXVII.-Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad. ​

Chapter XXXIX.-Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power, by His Own Will and Choice, to Perform God's Commandments, by Doing Which He Avoids the Evils Prepared for the Rebellious. ​

Another early church father, Ignatius, also makes this statement: "If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice." ​

Also Justin Martyr a 2nd Century Christian apologist ​

CHAP. CXLI.--FREE-WILL IN MEN AND ANGELS. "But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so." ​

So????? What is your point? A couple of people make pronouncements and you expect us to take their word that they're correct? I looked up Irenaeus HERE and saw no mention that he was a theologian. I also looked him up HERE and saw no mention that he was a theologian. Same with HERE and HERE. If you've been told or read he was a theologian perhaps your source was exaggerating or misunderstands his position a bit. (?) In any case I see nothing to support your contention that what you claim for god is supported by others: That it's a fact that

1. "God knows what Jeremiah will do... yet we do have free will" doesn't make sense to anyone but god.​

2. god does not think the way we do.​

3. it is "evident" god can foretell what we will do.​

4. god cannot intervene in our lives and makes decisions for us.​

So, although your links to Irenaeus may present a good argument for free will, I'm not about to plow through them; particularly when they don't address my criticism of your post: the four points I've listed above.

If you would like to discuss free will, god's foreknowledge, and determinism I would be more than happy to do so, but without quotes or links.

 

[Philothei]

Yeah like a nice gnostic that you are.... no sorry I am not interested in your dialectic... and BTW you did not answer my question... why do you speak in behalf of Lungus? Last time I checked you are not the OP

And yes be rude is being disrespectful... And you exhibit nothing but rudness and sarcasm by saying to someone you got a laugh at their post... why the hostility? Not finding athe right argument and resort there?

 

[Washington]

Yeah like a nice gnostic that you are.... no sorry I am not interested in your dialectic... and BTW you did not answer my question... why do you speak in behalf of Lungus? Last time I checked you are not the OP

Because I get a chuckle out of what you say you therefore think I'm speaking for Lugus? I gotta say that is one weird connection you're making. Actually, I couldn't figure out what the heck you were trying to get at with your, "who are you? Lungus lawyer?" Sometimes it's best to explain a remark when you throw it in from left field.

And yes be rude is being disrespectful... And you exhibit nothing but rudness and sarcasm by saying to someone you got a laugh at their post... why the hostility?

I'm sorry you are unable to take criticism without feeling disrespected, but I have nothing to do with how you choose to process the remarks of others. Perhaps you shouldn't put so much stock into the opinions of others---just a suggestion. That you took my objection to your attempt to convince us of your position by appealing to your unique personal knowledge of god as rudeness is a bit scary. You seem to be telling me that if you aren't treated with kid gloves then you aren't being treated fairly. That you can claim whatever nonsense you want, expect others to swallow it and bite their tongue less they offend you, is asking quite a bit Philothei. Some people just ain't going to buy it, and might even say so, and might even tell you why. It isn't my fault how you come off; that's your department. I simply pointed out how you've gone awry and that I find such a detour in thinking a bit humorous. I'm sure you are a very sweet and loving person, probably worthy of all the respect I have for my best friend, but even he wouldn't get away with what you've said. Nothing personal, and absolutely no hostility.

Not finding athe right argument and resort there?

?????

 

[elman]

This post is in reference to Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

One interpretation that I got was that this meant that God knew that Jeremiah would be obedient to Him. This is why God sanctified and ordained him before he was born.

My questions –
If God knows that Jeremiah is going to be obedient to Him before he was born, does that mean that Jeremiah is predestined?
Does this mean that we are all predestined to a certain life – one a sinner and one a saint?
Does this mean that God has perfect knowledge of the future?

If God does have this perfect knowledge, then how can we have free will?
Do we have free will?

Comments?

Nothing makes sense in religion if we have no free will. God becomes a monster that created some people so He could torture them forever. God knowing before I am created that I would love some people and hurt some people, does not mean I had no choice. He can know what my choice is going to be without my abililty to chose being removed.

 

[Philothei]

Nothing makes sense in religion if we have no free will. God becomes a monster that created some people so He could torture them forever. God knowing before I am created that I would love some people and hurt some people, does not mean I had no choice. He can know what my choice is going to be without my abililty to chose being removed.

I ditto that... but it seems that falls into deaf ears....

 

[TeddyKGB]

I ditto that... but it seems that falls into deaf ears....

Elman means well, but as he eternally fails to provide a coherent definition of "choice," these free will threads inevitably descend into a morass of circularity. Predictable, really, considering "free will" and "choice" are in fact morasses of circularity.

 

[Washington]

Nothing makes sense in religion if we have no free will. God becomes a monster that created some people so He could torture them forever. God knowing before I am created that I would love some people and hurt some people, does not mean I had no choice. He can know what my choice is going to be without my abililty to chose being removed.

Why would god become a monster? He had no more choice in what he did than do his mortal creations have a choice in what they do. God is just as bound to the dictates of determinism as we are. Of course one could argue that god is exempt from such a restriction, and many do, but saying so doesn't make it so. However, under the Christian notion of god's freedom of choice, he does come off as a monster. And this is irrespective of mankind's ability to choose or not choose.