Pre-Wrathers' Any Takers?

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[dankim80]

dankim80

Hi! I saw where you are wondering about the time of Jesus as a thief in Rev. 16.
Look at it as Jesus is not then coming to raise people from the dead, but only to allow blessings to come on those that survived the time of the great tribulation and the seven vials of His wrath. They will be blessed to go on to live into the 1000 years of His reign on the earth.
blessed /is/ he
that does what?
watches......okay the church was to do this too
but note how the rest of the verse reveals that the message is not for the church or any people that are dead.

keepeth their garments

This means that the people must be yet living in their mortal bodies on the earth. They are told to keep their garments, as in survive the rest of the time and they will be blessed to live on into the reign of Christ. They will not rule with Christ, but can be blessed only and thus at that time cannot gain eternal life. The eternal life moment comes for them at the end of His 1000 years of reign and the temptation time by Satan. The time when Jesus will divide up the living groups as sheep and goats.

See how 2nd Corinthians 5 shows that the church desires to lose her garments as she will gain new clothes? Thus Jesus will come two separate times as a thief.
7th trumpet/ 6th seal coming time
for the church
to give out new garments

just before His reign on the earth
then He will come as a thief
to send out His warning to all to keep their garments....as in Jesus is warning them to not die....if they die..they will never have a chance to be blessed.

Why is that?
Because 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 reveals to us that at the last trump....when the trumpet sounds
death is swallowed up in victory

So we are to understand the once the 7th trumpet sounds to signal the moment of the believers in Jesus being changed in the twinkling of an eye.....then never again will a dead person have victory.

Vinsight4u,

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is a word of warning from the Lord. We are to keep our garments lest he returns as a thief and we are found naked. We should always live prepared for his return. I don't see Jesus warning anyone not to die. I don't see where keeping our garments has anything to do with surviving the rest of the time. The Lord tells us not to fear them which kill the body...but fear him which is able to destroy the body and soul in hell.

I agree with your statement that the rest of the verse is not for the dead, but I can't conclude that it is not for the church that is alive still.

Are you saying that those watching and keeping their garments are not a part of "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord?"

Rev 3:1-5 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis...I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead. Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments: and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that over cometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...

 

[dankim80]

dankim80

Here's a summary of sorts for you to see how I look at things to unfold.

3rd seal ......now

sealing of the 144,000 (remnant of Israel to restart it later)
4th seal .......the man of sin ruler of Iraq
5th seal......the great tribulation
6th seal......sign that the trib is over
sun is dark
moon is blood
7th trumpet
the didn't have to worry about their garments people dead or alive all get new eternal life ones

I agree with you on the 5th seal and 6th seal. Perhaps someday we can talk about the first four seals.
I disagree that anyone not keeping, or as you say, not worrying about their garments will receive new garments.
2 Cor 5:2-4 Paul doesn't want to be unclothed and found naked, but to be clothed upon. He desires to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Again in Rev 3, Jesus clearly states that only those that have not defiled their garments will be worthy and walk with him in white and not have their name blotted out of the book of life. Jesus will confess his name before his Father and his angels.

 

[dankim80]

dankim80

I see where you are also talking about the 45 days. I guess you guys are meaning the extra 45 days in Daniel 12.

Go to Micah 7 and see how the Assyrian ..as in Iraqi ruler is promised to get shown marvellous /things/ for a certain length of time.
that time is going to be the 45 days
It is the time of the seven vials of God's wrath..the marvellous sign in Rev. 15:1.
the seven last plagues

We can prove it because Micah told us the Asssyrian will get these marvellous /things/ according to a certain amount of time...and then he tied it to the days it took Israel to come out of Egypt. that means it will be 45 days.
See Exodus 16:1.

The Hebrews had left Egypt and 45 days later is when God gave them the sign that they had been brought out of Egypt.....quail and manna came

on the 15th day of the second month

verse 6......brought you out of Egypt

Vinsight4u,

This looks interesting. I wil be studying it. Thanks for the input.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[WarrenG]

God will miraculously care for them, even as He did with Elijah, for it is these days that the Elijah Spirit will be upon all Christians.

Dad Ernie

I hear ur point on God minding and providing for his people during the tribulation, but then how do explain that the only Christians that appear to be alive in Revalation at the end of the Tribulation are the 144,000?

Surely that entails ALL Christians on earth must die during the reign of the anti-Christ? Or am i wrong?

Do Reply, God Bless

 

[Dad Ernie]

I hear ur point on God minding and providing for his people during the tribulation, but then how do explain that the only Christians that appear to be alive in Revalation at the end of the Tribulation are the 144,000?

Surely that entails ALL Christians on earth must die during the reign of the anti-Christ? Or am i wrong?

Greetings Warren G,

Well, we see the 144,000 in two places. Once in Rev 7 and once in Rev 14. From Rev 7 we also see multitudes from all nations in the same chapter. Then it appears in Rev 14 that this may be those either in Heaven, or when the Lord begins His reign from Jerusalem (Mt. Zion - which is also a reference to Heaven) so I am not exactly certain of this.

However, when the Two Witnesses are killed and called up (the first resurrection), we also see:

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

This is what is meant by the following:

1 Thess 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

At the time of the first resurrection, there are a few days (45 I think), before the 7th trumpet sounds at which time the "catching up" (rapture) will occur of those REMNANT (those remaining alive) are then caught up to be with those of the first resurrection and the Lord forever after.

Remember the resurrection comes first, THEN the rapture.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[WarrenG]

Dear Dad Ernie,

You have given me a lot to think about. I agree with your explanation, except you don't seem to think that all of the last 7 vials/plagues are the wrath of God. See my note to good4u above for scriptual reasoning that all 7 plagues are the wrath of God being poured out on the earth.

Babylon is definitely part of God's wrath, receiving its plague during the 7th vial. As you pointed out, Christians do not receive of her plagues. Some of the other plagues are spefically intended only for the unbelievers, also, so i had previously, now I think erroneously, concluded that the Lord must have raptured us prior to these plagues. But I'm seeing now, after what you have written and by looking at the scriptures more carefully, that we are protected from them.

Are you a pre-wrath rapture believer, or do you think that believers are on the earth, but are not touched by the last 7 plagues that are filled up with the wrath of God? From what you've written, I think you believe the latter, but you have stated that you a pre-wrath believer.

Jesus doesn't return until the 7th plague is poured out, so I believe the rapture must occur then which is after at least the 1st six plagues of wrath.

If the 2 witnesses are praying down the wrath of God as described in these last plagues, it is no wonder that the world is rejoicing when the beast is finally allowed to overcome them. Thankfully, their rejoicing is quickly ended.

I love your description of Christians "on the street" preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and God caring for them. I knew the difference between the wrath of God and tribulation, but I had never really thought about the miraculous events surrounding the wrath of God. Thanks for pointing these out to me.

A side note: I don't see the 1st 4 seals occurring within the "3 1/2 years".
I see the 4 horsemen riding forth to usher in the rising of the "son of perdition/little horn". Perhaps we can discuss this some other time.

Thanks for the input.

Does that mean, therefore that the Wrath of God comes first whilst all believers are on earth still (but we are protected form them as the bible says) then AFTER God's wrath, the 7yr tribulation begins?

If so, would Christians have been taken up before the 7yrs begin? Pls do reply

God Bless

 

[WarrenG]

At the time of the first resurrection, there are a few days (45 I think), before the 7th trumpet sounds at which time the "catching up" (rapture) will occur of those REMNANT (those remaining alive) are then caught up to be with those of the first resurrection and the Lord forever after.

Remember the resurrection comes first, THEN the rapture.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Cheers bro- so then basically is what your saying you believe is NO ONE IS GOING ANYWHERE before the reign of the AC on Earth, all Christains (faithfull and backslidden) will remain on Earth til the end (ie battle of Armgdn and beginning of 1000yr reign)?

Do reply, Blessings

WG