Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

It could be a rapture before the seven years, and a resurrection kind of rapture maybe, but visible resurrections going on, at the 3 1/2 year mark, or at the final battle after the seven years...? Or leave after being resurrected midway, then return or what...?

And is the first rapture, is "not the appearing as the Christ to all or the entire world or those not part of that rapture yet"...? People just disappear... So, does he appear to the rest of the world at that time, or and/but maybe at the midway mark, and/or resurrecting people from the dead to become a part of your army, or to just go with you/Him/God and return later, after the last half of the 3 1/2 years, but takes them or does this resurrecting from the dead before that, or mid way at that time, or what...? To come back later, or what...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

And is the first rapture, is "not the appearing as the Christ to all or the entire world or those not part of that rapture yet"...? People just disappear... So, does he appear to the rest of the world at that time, or and/but maybe at the midway mark, ..

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Good question.

Perhaps when it talks about 'we shall see Him' it may refer to how we will see Him, but not the rest of the world who is unsaved?

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We do know that at the Rapture we shall be changed, so that fits the bill here for 'we shall be like him'!

When He returns to the earth, and His feet stand on the mount of Olives, of course, every eye will see Him.

Jason0047 said:

What you call abuse of Scripture is simply your lack of understanding. What I said simply refutes your belief. Again, the disciples asked where they are being taken. Jesus did not say it would be to the place that you suggested. Jesus said, "Wherever the body is, in that place will the eagles be gathered together." Eagles are the saints. They will eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains. The angel even calls the fowls of the air (saints) to battle. This is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

17 "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17-18).

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." (Revelation 19:9).

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." (Revelation 19:7).

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;" (Revelation 19:17).

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Jesus did not say it would be to the place that you suggested. Jesus said, "Wherever the body is, in that place will the eagles be gathered together." Eagles are the saints.

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That "eagle/body/corpse" event is only mentioned in Matthew and Luke of the 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourse.

I like to study the Greek and what I found in Matthew 24 Luke 17 was pretty astonishing, especially Luke 17 and Revelation 18

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Post #41

Note the Greek word #4430 used in Matthew 24:28

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

4430. ptoma from the alternate of 4098;
a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):--dead body, carcase, corpse.
G4430 πτῶμα (ptōma), occurs 5 times in 4 verses

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the body<4430> may be, there shall the eagles<105> be gathered together.

#4430 is used in only 3 other verses in the NT.

The body of John the Baptist in Mark 6,

Mark 6:
24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
27 And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
29 And when is disciples heard of it, they came
and took up his body<4430> and laid it in a tomb.

And the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:
8 And their bodies/s<4430> shall lie in the street<4113> of the great City, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their bodies/s <4430> three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their bodies<4430> to be put in a tomb<3418>

Luke 17 uses an entirely different word,
and shows the solid relation between his 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourse and Revelation.

4983 soma from 4982;
the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:--bodily, body, slave
G4983 σῶμα (sōma), occurs 146 times in 122 verses

This event is the same one as Matthew 24:28:

Luke 17:37
And they answering say to Him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them, 'Where the corpses<4983> are, there will the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.'

Out of the 122 verses it is used in the NT, it is found in ONLY 1 verse in Revelation, the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem

Revelation 18:13
13 “and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies/corpses<4983> and souls of men.
19 And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated/<2049>.

Luke 21:20
"whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being surrounded by war-troops, then be knowing!
that has-neared the desolating<2050> of Her"

"BEHOLD! YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT TO YE DESOLATE/A WILDERNESS!"

Matthew 23
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>
Luke 13:
34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!........
35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>,






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Choose Wisely said:

Ok...........Even when I provide a proof that there will be people in heaven.............is that going to change a single thing with you or are you going to continue to spout things that are not true even though what you say can be easily proven wrong??????????????????????????????????????????

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

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Revelation 19:2 For true and just are His Judgements! He has condemned the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication and He has taken vengeance on her for the blood of His servants.
The next verse proves you wrong. Don't you bother with context?
Obviously those people are the martyrs, they have been killed by the RCC and the Anti-Christ and God has avenged them.
As we are told in Revelation 6:9-11, they are allowed to cry out at times, so instead of your false belief of the Church going to heaven, that multitude are the souls of the dead martyrs, kept under the heavenly Altar.
Who will be brought back to life when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4

dad said:

Since you admit that the day of the Lord is more than a day, and is a time period,

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The great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is a single Day event. Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Revelation 18:8, +
Jesus only 'comes as a thief', that is; unexpectedly ONCE. On His Day of wrath.

The next spectacular event to happen is the Rapture of the Bride (The Church).
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ItIsFinished! said:

The next spectacular event to happen is the Rapture of the Bride (The Church).
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So I take it you still aren't convinced that 70ad Jerusalem being in Revelation............

Perhaps if we can figure out how a rapture happened in the 1st century leading up to 70ad, then we can figure out how a future rapture will occur in the next destruction of Jerusalem/Temple.
Sounds like a plan...............

Jeremiah 7:34
And I have caused to cease from cities of Judah, And from streets of Jerusalem, The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, Voice of bridegroom, and voice of bride, For the land doth become a desolation!
Jeremiah 25:10
I will banish from them the sounds of joy and gladness,
the voices of bride and bridegroom,
the sound of millstones
and the light of the lamp.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
POST #54

Matthew 24:41
“Two women will be grinding at the mill:
one will be taken and the other left.
Luke 17:35
“Two women will be grinding together,
the one will be taken and the other left.

Revelation 18
22 “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer;
and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer;
and the sound of a millstone will not be heard in you any longer;
23 The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!




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ItIsFinished! said:

It isn't that I'm not making sense, you just don't understand what I'm saying.
The just are resurrected to life, but not all of the just are resurrected at the same time.
Those who are resurrected to the second death (the unjust) happens only one time .
This is one of the main reasons individuals reject the Rapture.
They are confused about the resurrection of the just.
It happens in stages not all at once.

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I don't see how you get around Jesus' statement "the hour is coming when all who are in the graves will hear the voice of God..." When he says "all", doesn't that mean "all"? And "we who remain will be caught up..." so doesn't "we who" include all? I just don't see how you get stages over time out of "first resurrection." It doesn't say "first class" or "first stages" or "foremost" or anything like that. I just don't see how you get such a thing out of the context of Rev. 20. When it says "they were raised to life," and "this is the first resurrection," it looks to me like a chronological first, as opposed to the 2nd after the 1000 years. It looks to me like "this" is referring to what it just said about "that" resurrection. I just don't see how you get "this stage of the first resurrection" out of it.
TD

dad said:

Well I would call the saints who are saved from the evil forces at the end of the 1000 year Milennium resurected/raptured. I would consider the Rapture itself as a Resurrection. Then the dead who are raised when He returns to earth. Jesus was the firstborn of the resurrected, so I guess that is another one. Then there is the great throne judgement after the 1000 years, where dead are raised to be judged. Not sure if I left any out...why, did you think there was just one?

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I see only 2 in scripture. The first is that of the righteous, and the 2nd that of the unrighteous. Jesus' resurrection was the prototype of the first, so His was unique. The other 2 are for the rest of mankind.
John 5:28-29, Rev. 20:4-5. I don't see how you get 5 resurrections out of this without an agenda to do so.
TD

Revealing Times said:

WHAT ? You can't have a Marriage Supper without a Marriage, which happens in Heaven.

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife(Church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her(Church) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb(Armageddon is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb). And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: (The Church are the Brethren) worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God(Jesus). 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (See verse 8, the Church or Bride/Saints are dressed in FINE LINEN).

So it says right here in verse 14 that the Church/Bride/Saints in fine linen are IN HEAVEN and we follow Jesus on White Horses. So now that we have determined via the scriptures that we are in Heaven, let's see where we go to next !!

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I'll have to look into this further, but I still say that v. 11 starts a separate vision. Just because the saints wear fine linen doesn't make these two visions at the same time.

Also, I can't see how Armageddon is the marriage supper. Just doesn't make any sense to me. A marriage supper is a joyful and peaceful event, not a blood bath.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God (See Rev. 14:18-20, Winepress of God/Armageddon). 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven(Church, we are the eagles in Matt. 24:28 and the Carcass is Armageddon), Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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Are you suggesting the saints will eat the flesh of those people and their horses? I can't see such cannibalism or vengeance as a marriage supper.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse(Jesus), and against his army (Church/Bride). 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Church is Raptured to Heaven BEFORE Jesus' Second Coming to Mt. Zion, we return with him just as the scriptures show above. The White Horses are a Metaphor for victory. Jesus will speak the victory with his mouth, thus the Sword of the Spirit via the mouth. The coming Marriage Supper happens at Armageddon, we the fowls eat the flesh of kings and might men etc. etc. and that is also a Metaphor for victory over the Wicked !!

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It seems to me that you are taking highly symbolic (apocalyptic) text and making it literal, much like people try to make something literal out of parables. Except I see that some things you conveniently interpret symbolically. It makes me think of your whole scheme as suspect.

So how can the Church come from Heaven, having just Married the Lamb, return with Jesus to defeat the BEAST, his Kings and Armies, without having been raptured to Heaven ? We also the Church dressed in White Robes before the Seals are even broken and as the multitude in earlier chapters of Revelation.

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I question everything eschatological, so I'm just asking questions.

Rev. 4:4

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And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment (Church has White Robes); and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Church who is by now the Bride dressed in White Raiment/Robes)

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;...................

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are all the Raptured Church in Heaven having already become the Bride, shown just before the Seals are opened and just after the Seals are opened. Verse 14 proves verse 11 is not a separate vision, the Saints are seen in White Linen in both verse 8 and 14.

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The saints are always in white linen, this doesn't make v. 8 and 14 the same time frame.

Rev. 19 thus is the full 7 years in Heaven. Revelation is not in Chronological Order.

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There is a lot in the scripture that is not chronological. But it doesn't give anyone justification to make up their own chronology of it.

Rev. 1 is the Vision of the Glorious Lord.
Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age.
Rev. 4 and is the Church in Heaven as the Bride.
Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 15&16 are the Plagues of God in order.
Rev. 20 comes next, it's the Judgment Seat.
Rev. 21 and 22 is the hereafter and the New Jerusalem.

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations or things happening during the timing of the other chapters above. FOR INSTANCE:

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses 42 month ministry period, it starts before the first Sea is opened. It has to because they die before the Beast dies. I think the 1335 happens 75 days before the 1260 and is the Two-witnesses showing up to bless Israel with Repentance.

Rev. 12 starts at the 1260 event, when Jesus opens the First Seal. The Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering and chases the Woman (Israel) into the Wilderness for 1260 days.

Rev. 13 starts at the same event, the 1260/First Seal, he rules for 42 Months.

Rev. 14 speaks about at least 7 Years, we see the Church Raptured in verse 14 by Jesus who is on the Clouds, then we see the 144,000 (Jews God protects) on Mt. Zion with Jesus shown coming with Jesus when he defeats those at Armageddon in verses 18-20.

Rev. 17 starts at the 1260 event/First Seal also, its when the Beast and his Kings (SEE Rev. 17:16) destroys all False Religion by mandating only the Beast can be worshiped as God. These will b most of the 1/4 of mankind killed off in the Seal or 1.5 to 2 Billion people, I see them mostly as Muslims.

Rev. 18 also starts at the First Seal but runs all the way through the 7th Vial. Babylon is he WHOLE WORLD getting hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues of God, thus the Commerce goes south in a hurry. 2 Billion people die during the Seals then at the 2nd Woe another 1.5 Billion people die, BAD FOR COMMERCE. And all the grasses burn, 1/3 of the trees, 1/3 of the sea water turns to blood and a 1/3 of the sea Creatures (Shrimp/Fish) die, 1/3 of the Ships are destroyed. Then we have the Three Woes, the last of who is ALL SEVEN VIALS !!

So of course Babylon's Commerce is destroyed. Of course she burns !!

When it says Babylon has become the Habitation of devils, of course it has, Satan has been cast down to earth, Apollyon and his hordes of Demons released from the bottomless pit on mankind.

When it says "Come out of her my people, lest you partake in her sins and thus receive of her plagues". OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT...........God is telling Israel to Flee Judea, to get to Petra, lest they sin against God like Babylon (World) and thus receive of her Plagues. God is saying, go to Petra where I will protect you.

Rev. 19 is also the Full 7 years. The Church IS READY for her Marriage, then we see her in Revelation 4:4, 5:9 and Rev. 7:9-17 wearing white. Later in Rev. 19 she returns with Christ to defeat the Beast on earth at the Marriage Supper (Armageddon).

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There are so many various constructs of Rev. and eschatology, I take everything I read on it with a grain of salt.
TD

Choose Wisely said:

Ok...........Even when I provide a proof that there will be people in heaven.............is that going to change a single thing with you or are you going to continue to spout things that are not true even though what you say can be easily proven wrong??????????????????????????????????????????

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

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Jesus, and the souls of the Apostles, and the souls of thousands of our dead Brothers and Sisters are there now.
Do you deny this fact?

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

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ItIsFinished! said:

The next spectacular event to happen is the Rapture of the Bride (The Church).
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Former pretrib believer Steven Straub, who is the son of a Baptist preacher, reveals the problems with the pretrib viewpoint.


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ItIsFinished! said:

The next spectacular event to happen is the Rapture of the Bride (The Church).
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Too bad that idea is not mentioned anywhere in scripture.
Bald statements like you make, are useless and promote false theories that just add to the deceiving fables that abound.

I'm not real comfortable with stating anything now, after being told that if I believe a certain way that my whole Bible-based knowledge is bunk...

And, I've not time to read every single thing posted here, I just wanted to post Rev 3:10... If it has not already been mentioned and refuted. It's just what comes to mind right off the bat

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Jason0047 said:

Paul is saying he is showing us a new mystery in verse 51 of 1 Corinthians 15:51-55. So this was not the physical resurrection of the dead that others have known about before (like with Martha knowing that Lazarus was going to rise again physically one day - See John 11:24) but this was something new. It was a new mystery being revealed by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51).

Also, Paul says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44). So when verse 53 talks about how we who are mortal will put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53), it is talking about verse 44 that says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." The gospel of John gives us one clue to tie this together. It says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,..." (John 1:12). In the OT, it was common for "sons of God" to be a reference to angels; In the NT, it is a reference commonly to believers. We are given power to become sons of God (i.e. to be like the angels). In fact, Jesus gives us another clue.

Luke 20,

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead [spiritual body type resurrection], neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."​

Jesus here says that we will not marry for will be like the angels who cannot die anymore (i.e. angels are immortal), and this is a reference to how we are called the children of the resurrection. So being like angels is a reference to a resurrection (Which Paul clarifies for us in 1 Corinthians 15, i.e. a new mystery revealed or explained).

Jesus gives a clear distinction between two different resurrections in the parallel passage of Matthew 22,

Matthew 22,

29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection [the spiritual body type resurrection i.e. Rapture] they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead [the physical flesh and blood body type resurrection], have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."​

But we would not know this distinction unless it was more clearly explained to us in a new mystery by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51.

Note: The words in brackets above in blue are my commentary to the text.

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Jason,

Your interpretation tells us that there are two separate resurrections of the just which you also connect with the unproven notion of a Rapture separate from the Second Coming. There is supposed to be a physical resurrection, into bodies like the ones we have now, followed by a spiritual resurrection, where Christians will become like angels.

One problem with this scenario is that the Bible does not give us a real picture of the afterlife. One of the reasons that Christians historically thought of heaven as people having wings, sitting on clouds and playing harps is that the Bible tells us so little about the afterlife. We simply don't have as much information as a lot of people would like.

Paul's statement about putting on imperishable in Corinthians Chapter 15 doesn't tell us that millions of Christians will disappear from the earth. There is no connection between the two ideas.

Look at it this way. In the Rapture, millions of Christians are supposed to disappear. Supposedly their clothes will drop to the ground where they stood, since the vanishing will be so abrupt. Suppose, then, that God creates a new spiritual body for these people when they vanish, so they become like angels. But if God creates new bodies for these people, why do their old bodies have to vanish? Why wouldn't God just remove their souls, leave their earthly bodies behind, and create new spiritual bodies for them in heaven? I'm not saying that I believe this, but it hangs together better than the scenario you are putting forward.

ItIsFinished! said:

Yes there will be saints during the tribulation period because multitudes come to Christ as Saviour during that time.
That however does not refute that the Church (Bride) will be removed before God's divine judgment comes upon a rebellious and rejecting world.

Those that are sealed that you speak of are the 144,000 sons of Israel.
12,000 from each 12 tribes.
They will be divinely sealed and protected by God.
They will evangelize during the tribulation.
One cannot state that God keeps all the tribulation saints safe during that time time because many will be beheaded for their testimony and refusal to worship the Anti-Christ .

And regardless of what any believer view(s) are regarding the end times prophecy , they/we should always live a life accepting unto the Lord.

I have said this countless times and will continue to do so and that is most people have a misunderstanding about the resurrection for the just.
The resurrection for the just happens only one time for the just , but in stages.
Unlike the resurrection for the unjust also only one time , but not in stages.
If one cannot grasp this truth then they will be misguided regarding the truths and order of events during the end of times.

It is one if not the biggest stumbling block for many who study this topic .
The other would be that people don't realize that the removal of the Church before the 7 year tribulation and The Second Coming of Christ are two DISTINCT and SEPARATE events.

The Second Coming of Christ, He literally sets foot upon the Mount of Olives.
The removal of the Church , believers meet the Lord in the clouds/air.

Two seperate and distinct events.

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ItIsFinished,

I have read your posts in this thread. It is clear that you regard the Rapture as settled doctrine. Can you name one church that includes a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming) in its creed or statement of faith? We all know that there is no Rapture in the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed or any other early creed. We all know that the liturgical churches do not believe in a Rapture.

After spending many hours in a Baptist church, I first heard of this notion of Rapture when I was 19. My college roommate had a bumper sticker on his car, "In Case of Rapture This Car Will Be Unmanned." He was a member of the Church of Christ. Yet the Church of Christ today is violently opposed to any notion of Rapture.

A while back I flabbergasted a Dispensationalist by pointing out that the Southern Baptist Convention's Statement of Faith does not include Rapture. It completely fails to affirm a Rapture. Quoting from memory, what it does say, on the end times, is that "God will bring the world to an end in an appropriate way."


You believe that Rapture is indisputable. Can you point out one church that believes in a Rapture?

Dale said:

Jason,

Your interpretation tells us that there are two separate resurrections of the just which you also connect with the unproven notion of a Rapture separate from the Second Coming. There is supposed to be a physical resurrection, into bodies like the ones we have now, followed by a spiritual resurrection, where Christians will become like angels.

One problem with this scenario is that the Bible does not give us a real picture of the afterlife. One of the reasons that Christians historically thought of heaven as people having wings, sitting on clouds and playing harps is that the Bible tells us so little about the afterlife. We simply don't have as much information as a lot of people would like.

Paul's statement about putting on imperishable in Corinthians Chapter 15 doesn't tell us that millions of Christians will disappear from the earth. There is no connection between the two ideas.

Look at it this way. In the Rapture, millions of Christians are supposed to disappear. Supposedly their clothes will drop to the ground where they stood, since the vanishing will be so abrupt. Suppose, then, that God creates a new spiritual body for these people when they vanish, so they become like angels. But if God creates new bodies for these people, why do their old bodies have to vanish? Why wouldn't God just remove their souls, leave their earthly bodies behind, and create new spiritual bodies for them in heaven? I'm not saying that I believe this, but it hangs together better than the scenario you are putting forward.

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Let me clarify so you are not confused.

There are two spiritual resurrections or two Raptures.

#1. 1st Rapture: Pre-Trib (Spiritual Resurrection): The spirits of the saints in Abraham's Bosom and spirits of saints who are alive on the Earth will be changed to have spiritual angelic bodies (mortal will put on immortality; Note: Scripture says angels are immortal and we will be like the angels).

#2. 2nd Rapture: Mid-Trib (Spiritual Resurrection): The spirits of the saints who are alive during the Middle of the Tribulation who were not slaughtered by the antichrist are told to look up for their redemption draws near. Note: Not much is said of this Rapture, but it is a catching up, so it is more than likely similar to the first except that no saints will be rising out of Abraham's bosom (because that has already happened in the first Rapture).

Brief Note on the Physical Resurrections:
The Bible says there are two physical flesh and blood resurrections. One for the righteous (in two phases) and a second one for the wicked.

Here are the physical flesh and blood resurrections.

#1. 1st Resurrection - Phase #1 (A Physical Flesh and Blood Body Type Resurrection for the Saints): After Christ destroys the nations of this world, and after the Earth will be purified by fire (similar to the global flood, but more effective), those believers who were martyred by the antichrist will live and reign with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:6).

#2. 1st Resurrection - Phase #2 (A Physical Flesh and Blood Body Type Resurrection for the Saints): After the Old Earth passes away, a New Earth will come and the rest of the dead will live after the thousand years is finished (Note: The 1,000 years is also known as the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ). This means all other believers (who did not live in the Millennium) will live again physically. So those who were taken up in the 1st Rapture will live again. It is unclear whether or not those who were taken up in the 2nd Rapture will be included or not. But the text is suggestive that they will also join the same path as those in the 1st Rapture. For Daniel 12:12 is suggestive of this. It says, "Blessed is the one who perseveres...and reaches the end of the 1,335 days." The Raptured saints will be resurrected physically at the Judgment on the New Earth, and will live and reign with Christ for all eternity there.

#3. 2nd Resurrection (The Resurrection of the Wicked):
They will be resurrected physically so as to be judged and then punished in the Lake of Fire. They will get to see the city of New Jerusalem from a far because they are in the judgment hall on the New Earth. They will see the saints in the Kingdom (outside the Judgment hall) from this place and they will be thrust out and thrown into the Lake of Fire to be punished according to their sins that they committed. Every several passings of moons (months): The lifeless bodies of the wicked (burned up charred corpses) will be presented to be seen by the saints (Isaiah 66:22-24). Their corpses or remains will be eaten up by worms and be no more trace of their existence. There will be no more death, pain, or sorrow, etc.

BABerean2 said:

Jesus, and the souls of the Apostles, and the souls of thousands of our dead Brothers and Sisters are there now.
Do you deny this fact?

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

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Uh, the 4th seal clearly has not happened yet. ¼th of the Earth has not died at any point in history (Which I believe is the result of the enforcement of the Mark). I am also pretty sure the 2nd and 3rd seals have not happened yet, either. The 2nd seal is peace being taken from the Earth. The 3rd seal is a great famine upon the whole world. The antichrist will use the leverage of the 3rd seal to get people to take the mark so as to feed their families. Has that happened yet? No.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Out of the 122 verses it is used in the NT, it is found in ONLY 1 verse in Revelation, the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem

Revelation 18:13
13 “and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies/corpses<4983> and souls of men.

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Except that is not talking of some battle over Israel long ago. That is about a city that ruled over all the kings of the earth, certainly Israel did nothing remotely similar in the first century.

keras said:

The great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is a single Day event. Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Revelation 18:8, +
Jesus only 'comes as a thief', that is; unexpectedly ONCE. On His Day of wrath.

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Well if no one knows when He raptures us, that means it is very unexpected! So also is the return of Jesus later with His saints, at least men won't know the exact hour and day. Rev 18 is about the judment of a certain city in the end time. Not applicable to the term day of the Lord. The verse in Isa doesn't even MENTION the day of the Lord. Of course some judments in history came fast, that doesn't make them THE day of the Lord.