Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

ItIsFinished! said:

Not my idea.
100% Scriptural.
The resurrection of the just does not happened at the same time.
The Word of God is quite clear on this matter.

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Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Thank God we have the Word of God which reveals the truth over the words of men, such as yourself.

Any unbiased witness can read the text above, and see the truth spoken by the Son of God.

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BABerean2 said:

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Thank God we have the Word of God which reveals the truth over the words of men, such as yourself.

Any unbiased witness can read the text above, and see the truth spoken by the Son of God.

.

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100% false.
I have shown Scripture clearly that shows the resurrection of the just happens in stages.
This is simple Bible knowledge.
All you say has nothing to do with what I present from the Scriptures regarding the tpoic.

Dale said:

Jason,



Your clarification says that spiritual resurrection is separate from physical resurrection but it provides no evidence for this. Are you saying that some people will benefit from a physical resurrection while others will get a spiritual resurrection? As best I can understand your scheme of things, spiritual resurrection is better than physical resurrection. Is that correct?


Others have distinguished between resurrection as a mortal and resurrection as an immortal. Lazarus was resurrected as a mortal, he went from a dead body to a living mortal man, but he lived out his life and died again. When Christians are resurrected at the last day they will be resurrected as immortals, they will not die again. How does this fit with your terms "physical resurrection" and "spiritual resurrection"?


Even if your distinction between physical resurrection and spiritual resurrection worked out, you provide timing for two separate spiritual resurrections. I am not seeing any evidence for either one. You present a rather complicated scheme--two physical resurrections and two spiritual resurrectons--with no verse of scripture to back this up. If the second spiritual resurrection happens mid-tribulation, does that mean that no one can receive the spiritual resurrection at a later time? That doesn't seem to make sense.

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Compare verse 44 (1 Corinthians 15:44) with the catching up passage below in the same chapter.

dad said:

We shall be changed...the dead in Christ shall rise first....we shall meet Him..Did you think that the 'we' shall be changed meant unbelievers and that they would be raised incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye?? Paul was talking about US.


Yes Jesus will judge. That would not be at the marriage supper nor at the Rapture of course. Nor was it at the first Christmas! Indeed He shall judge and separate the wicked from the saved...no one says that is at the Rapture.


Again, not all events are supposed to happen that time when we are garthered together with Him in the air!

What is this, toss out random verses hour?? Yes, after the marriage supper, and after the Rapture there will be a time when we head on back to earth, and Jesus takes over! That doesn't take away from any previous event in history before this such as the rapture.
Great, your problem seems to be thinking that because there are similar happenings in the Rapture and the second coming to earth with the saints, that there can only be one event. No. We need to look at what is being talked about.

In the next chapter, we have the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats.
Great, that ain't the Rapture though!


Not in your mind. However since we know that we are not appointed to wrath, and we know that there is a gathering together one day of the living and dead up into the air to be with Him where He is....there actually are passages that talk about this. Yes there are also passages that talk about when we return to earth (Jesus WITH us) and you chose to conflate the two, or have somehow not comprehended the fullness of the wonderful mystery and future we have.
He is actually coming to take us out of this mess before all hell breaks loose and all heaven too..in wrath on the earth!

Despite your haughty totty little snide accusations here, God made clear He loved us and was comin for us one day before the last horrible act in human history. This is the hope of ages. Tread lightly here, or you could find yourself on thin ice and hot water.

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Dad: "We shall be changed...the dead in Christ shall rise first....we shall meet Him..Did you think that the 'we' shall be changed meant unbelievers and that they would be raised incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye?? Paul was talking about US."

There is no reason to believe Paul talked about a Rapture here or anywhere else.


Dad: "Yes Jesus will judge. That would not be at the marriage supper nor at the Rapture of course."

Not so fast. In the Parable of the Wedding Banquet, the King, who represents God, throws the man caught without "wedding clothes" out "into the darkness." I take this to mean that hypocrites will be detected and thrown out. I don't know if the timing is literal or whether it is just a way of saying that such people will not be among the saints in heaven, but there it is.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
--Matthew 11:1-13 NIV


Dad: "Indeed He shall judge and separate the wicked from the saved...no one says that is at the Rapture."

Why do you believe in a Rapture?


Dad: "What is this, toss out random verses hour?? Yes, after the marriage supper, and after the Rapture there will be a time when we head on back to earth, and Jesus takes over! That doesn't take away from any previous event in history before this such as the rapture."


I quoted Scripture and you accuse me of throwing out Scripture. You seem to put the "marriage supper" before the Rapture, which makes no sense. The marriage supper is eternity in heaven. How could that be before the Rapture, even if there was such a thing? Why do you believe in a Rapture?


Dad: "Great, your problem seems to be thinking that because there are similar happenings in the Rapture and the second coming to earth with the saints, that there can only be one event."

There is only one event because there is no reason to believe in a Rapture.


Dad: "Great, that ain't the Rapture though!"

Why do you believe in a Rapture? Is it a coincidence that every passage in the Bible that might refer to a "Rapture" always refers to something else?


Dad: "Yes there are also passages that talk about when we return to earth (Jesus WITH us) and you chose to conflate the two, or have somehow not comprehended the fullness of the wonderful mystery and future we have."

Revelation indicates that saints who are already in heaven will come back with Jesus but there is no guarantee that any other Christian living today will be among them.


Dad: "He is actually coming to take us out of this mess before all hell breaks loose and all heaven too..in wrath on the earth!"

There is no such promise in the Bible.

ItIsFinished! said:

Friend , I provided several Scriptural verses that state otherwise.
Not all resurrections of the just happen at the same time.
How can you not see that?

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Are you asking a sincere question looking for an honest answer? Or is this rhetorical?
TD

ItIsFinished! said:

100% false.
I have shown Scripture clearly that shows the resurrection of the just happens in stages.
This is simple Bible knowledge.
All you say has nothing to do with what I present from the Scriptures regarding the tpoic.

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You are going to have to do better than that, if you want anyone on this forum to believe you.

Look at the words of Jesus in John 5:27-30 and explain how your doctrine compares to what Jesus said.

Otherwise, it is your word against the Word of Christ.
Guess which one we are going to believe?

.

tdidymas said:

Jesus' resurrection was a prototype, to show that God intends to raise us all up because Christ defeated death. When Jesus talks of the future resurrections, that of the righteous and that of the unrighteous, there is nothing in the text that implies that each resurrection will be in phases or spread out over time.

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Yet many, if not most believers see that we get called up before the general judgment and vengeance. You ought to say "I" do not see anything in the text.

In fact, in regard to the "first" resurrection of the righteous, the language in the context of Jesus' and the apostles' words in the NT imply that it is a single resurrection at one time.

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No. No more than is seems we all are appointed to the wrath of God or to judgment. We will be judged ourselves, and before the thousand years even stars, while the books are opened and the dead raised for the unsaved after the 1000 years. Trying to lump it altogether is nothing more than evidence you do not really understand.

In order to get multiple times or "phases" out of it you have to bring in an idea that is foreign to the contexts of those passages that talk about the resurrection of the church.

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It is not foreign that we are spared from wrath! Nor that He will take us to where He is! Nor that we will be at the marriage supper. Since that happens at the same time the great tribulation is going on down on earth, we have to be gone already! It is not foreign that we saints will return to earth WITH Jesus!

It is possible to use (or misuse) some of those verses out of context to come up with some support of resurrection phases, I think, but taking those contexts as written, I can't see how you can get "phases" out of them.

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It is misuse to claim we are appointed to the wrath of God. I thin someone brought out that just one event would not fulfill all the Scriptures?

So then, if you want to prove your point, you must exegete each passage along with the inclusion of all scripture relating to resurrection to show that the general idea of resurrection phases is embedded in those contexts. If this is not done, then I can't accept the phases idea.

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Well, who says you have to? We'll find out one day. I used to think that we all had to go through the great tribulation also. Now I do not.

By the way, this business of the second coming being as a thief in the night doesn't fit so well. Peple will know the year and probably moth, and maybe even week! Just not the day. If I knew a thief was coming next week, I think I might be somewhat ready. For the Rapture there is no countdown clock and no real warning period, it could happen any moment!

By the way I suspect that is why God left the exact time of Jesus' birth unknown exactly, because if we knew too much, some folks might be able to calculate things a little too close in the time just before He returns with His saints to earth to rule.

So then, since Jesus' resurrection was unique, one might say from the context of scripture that there are a total of 3 resurrections. Jesus', the righteous and the unrighteous.

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Hey, we're making progress, now we are up to three!!

We're close on this

I think you might need to add the one at the end of the thousand years where God saves the new believers who are encamped about by the wicked...

Dale said:

There is no reason to believe Paul talked about a Rapture here or anywhere else.

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Yes there is.

Not so fast. In the Parable of the Wedding Banquet, the King, who represents God, throws the man caught without "wedding clothes" out "into the darkness." I take this to mean that hypocrites will be detected and thrown out. I don't know if the timing is literal or whether it is just a way of saying that such people will not be among the saints in heaven, but there it is.

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That does not have to be talking about the event known as the marriage supper of the Lamb. No more than Jesus is a thief. He will come as a thief in the night. Those folks in the parable were at A wedding. Not sure it was THE wedding. There won't be any throwing anyone out of that wonderful marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven!

Why do you believe in a Rapture?

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Because it makes sense that we are taken out before the wrath, and it fits.


Dad: "What is this, toss out random verses hour?? Yes, after the marriage supper, and after the Rapture there will be a time when we head on back to earth, and Jesus takes over! That doesn't take away from any previous event in history before this such as the rapture."

I quoted Scripture and you accuse me of throwing out Scripture.

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I could quote where it says Judas went and hanged himself. So? That does not mean that was the only hanging in history, or that we are to do likewise, or that there is no Rapture...etc. Merely citing a verse about the actual second coming to earth of Jesus does not mean that there was no first coming, or that He did not appear to us and catch us up to be with Him, before that return with us!

You seem to put the "marriage supper" before the Rapture, which makes no sense. The marriage supper is eternity in heaven. How could that be before the Rapture, even if there was such a thing? Why do you believe in a Rapture?

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No, the supper is not before we even go up there to be with Him! The supper would be after, yet before the end of the tribulation.

There is only one event because there is no reason to believe in a Rapture.

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Yes, we are not appointed to wrath.

Why do you believe in a Rapture? Is it a coincidence that every passage in the Bible that might refer to a "Rapture" always refers to something else?

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In your mind. No coincidence. You just read it all the way you like.

Revelation indicates that saints who are already in heaven will come back with Jesus but there is no guarantee that any other Christian living today will be among them.

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If we were taken up to heaven to be with Him long before the end of the tribulation, we are guaranteed to be there!

There is no such promise in the Bible.

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Yet, here it is..

1Th 1:10 - And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


That end part of the tribulation IS the wrath of God.

Re 6:17 -For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

6:16 - And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

tdidymas said:

I don't believe in your "code," since the Little Horn in Dan. 8 and the Statue in Dan. 2 came and went many centuries ago. I believe in the historical accounts that show those prophecies fulfilled already.

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The bible is thus not contingent on what you believe or don't believe. In Dan. 8 the Little Horn is an END TIME Beast, that isn't even debatable to me. It even tells you that if you take the tunnel vision and chunk it.

tdidymas said:

You're not convincing. I need to see detail and exegesis, not talk about "code."

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Read it for yourself, maybe people can't see what's in plain sight.

tdidymas said:

So you don't think that we are in white robes in the spirit right now? White robes is a metaphor for righteousness, as typed in Zech. 3:1-5. I just don't see your idea in it.

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No, if we were in our New Bodies we would be in Heaven. Jesus gives the White Robes to those under the Altar. It is our Glorious bodies. We are living in SIN FLESH Brother. When we get our White Robes we will be free of this Sin Nature.

tdidymas said:

I don't care about your credentials. I'm looking for real exegesis using reliable rules of Hermeneutics. Only that would impress me. Your "quick and easy" proof texts don't cut it for me. This is why I keep asking questions, because it doesn't make sense. How do you know that the Beast is not the Roman Empire? It seems to me that is what a 1st Century reader would understand.

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You follow the Pharisee types, I will follow the Holy Spirit. I don't quibble with people about the things of God. The Beast was the Roman Empire at one time, as it was Babylon, Persia, Greece etc. But in the end times the Little Horn is A MAN..........it couldn't be more clear. You have to read a lot, study a lot and pray a lot, and you have to be called to Prophecy also, or either have eyes that see what thus saith the Spirit.

No one in the 1st Century was ever going t understand any of this, Daniel was told this would be locked up until the end times, when we can look back through history and understand these things, with the help of our "COMPUTERS" giving us a big time advantage over all other Generations as per researching biblical things !!

tdidymas said:

If I have to read your book to understand Rev., how is that any different process than cults do? This is why I am suspicious of constructs that use secret coded meanings to "reveal truth." I usually stay out of Eschatology for this reason. I'm just asking questions.

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I don't have a book it's a thread on this site.

I see now, you stay out of eschatology for a reason, you don't seem t be able to comprehend these things, and that's OK brother, not everyone is called unto it.

tdidymas said:

This looks like a boast to me. It makes me suspicious of anything else you say. I'm only impressed with solid exegesis.

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You just gave us a lot of doublespeak........you want SOLID EXEGESIS but didn't want to read my link. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

tdidymas said:

My trust is in what the Bible says, not in what people say about it.

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When you hear what the Spirit says do you really hear it ? I wonder.

dad said:

1Th 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


That end part of the tribulation IS the wrath of God.

Re 6:17 -For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

6:16 - And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

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You seem to be making the assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, and that the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are the same.

Because Christ returns as a "thief" in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in chapter 19, we know the book cannot be in chronological order.

The sun turns black and the stars fall from heaven to the earth in Revelation chapter 6, just as they do in the Olivet Discourse, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Most people have to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, because it does not fit their doctrine.

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, and at the 7th trumpet, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" at the end of chapter 11, and at the "harvest" of chapter 14, as well as chapter 16, and 19.

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BABerean2 said:

You seem to be making the assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, and that the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are the same.

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What wrath do you claim it referred to? It describes the events of the very end in some detail, then points out this is God's wrath. Not rocket science that.

Because Christ returns as a "thief" in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in chapter 19, we know the book cannot be in chronological order.

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False. He is many things. He is the Lamb, the Lion...etc etc. You seem to rest your whole post rib case on some convoluted interpretation of Revelation?

The sun turns black and the stars fall from heaven to the earth in Revelation chapter 6, just as they do in the Olivet Discourse, at the Second Coming of Christ.

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Correct, which is the wrath! That is what we are not appoint TO...we get out in the Rapture!

Most people have to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, because it does not fit their doctrine.

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I don't ignore it. It just is not at the time of the Rapture any more than it is at the time of the flood!

( I would be curious to see what percentage of post tribers actually believe there was a real worldwide flood)

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, and at the 7th trumpet, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" at the end of chapter 11, and at the "harvest" of chapter 14, as well as chapter 16, and 19.

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Great, many chapters talk about it.

In Rev 6 you mentioned, we see that it is His wrath just before the return of Christ with us, to eart.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This is why Jesus spares us from the wrath.

dad said:

This is why Jesus spares us from the wrath.

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You fail to see that at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon those under the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


The wrath of God is found below right after the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
We also find that this is the time of the judgment of the dead.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead, which is described in John 5:27-30.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is the same event found at the end of Revelation chapter 6.

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BABerean2 said:

You seem to be making the assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, and that the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are the same.

Because Christ returns as a "thief" in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in chapter 19, we know the book cannot be in chronological order.

The sun turns black and the stars fall from heaven to the earth in Revelation chapter 6, just as they do in the Olivet Discourse, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Most people have to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, because it does not fit their doctrine.

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, and at the 7th trumpet, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" at the end of chapter 11, and at the "harvest" of chapter 14, as well as chapter 16, and 19.

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Wow.......we agree 100%.

BABerean2 said:

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith
Heb 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

BABerean2 said:

You seem to be making the assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, and that the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are the same.

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The word for tribulation, #2347, only occurs in 9 verses of the Gospels and is not mentioned in Luke's Gospel.

However, Luke does mention both Distress and Wrath in Luke 21:23 of the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse.

The Greek word for "wrath<3709> is primarily used against the 1st century Jews......Look it up in a concordance

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
G3709 ὀργή (orgē), occurs 36 times in 34 verses
Greek Inflections of ὀργή
mGNT — 36x in 6 unique form(s) TR — 36x in 6 unique form(s)
ὀργὴ — 9x
ὀργή — 1x
ὀργῇ — 3x
ὀργὴν — 6x
ὀργήν — 3x
ὀργῆς — 14x

The same exact form of #3709 is used in:

Luke 21:23
But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
For there will be great distress<318> upon the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> on this people.

1Thessalonians 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins;
but the wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> has come upon them to the uttermost.

Matt and Luke use it against this people concerning the wrath coming to the in 70ad [also shown in Revelation]

The same exact form of the word #3709 used in Matt and Luke 3 is used 5 times in Revelation......including Revelation 6:16-17

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Showing 2 of the verses uses the exact same form of #3709 used in Matt and Luke 3. Interesting

Revelation 6:
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne
and from the wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> of the Lamb!

17 “For the great day of His wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> has come,
and who is able to stand


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LittleLambofJesus said:

The word for tribulation, #2347, only occurs in 9 verses of the Gospels and is not mentioned in Luke's Gospel.

However, Luke does mention both Distress and Wrath in Luke 21:23 of the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse.

The Greek word for "wrath<3709> is primarily used against the 1st century Jews......Look it up in a concordance

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
G3709 ὀργή (orgē), occurs 36 times in 34 verses
Greek Inflections of ὀργή
mGNT — 36x in 6 unique form(s) TR — 36x in 6 unique form(s)
ὀργὴ — 9x
ὀργή — 1x
ὀργῇ — 3x
ὀργὴν — 6x
ὀργήν — 3x
ὀργῆς — 14x

The same exact form of #3709 is used in:

Luke 21:23
But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
For there will be great distress<318> upon the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> on this people.

1Thessalonians 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins;
but the wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> has come upon them to the uttermost.

Matt and Luke use it against this people concerning the wrath coming to the in 70ad [also shown in Revelation]

The same exact form of the word #3709 used in Matt and Luke 3 is used 5 times in Revelation......including Revelation 6:16-17

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Showing 2 of the verses uses the exact same form of #3709 used in Matt and Luke 3. Interesting

Revelation 6:
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne
and from the wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> of the Lamb!

17 “For the great day of His wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> has come,
and who is able to stand


.

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Do you think the following verse is about 70 AD?


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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You fail to see that at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon those under the blood of the Lamb.

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No I do not fail to see that in any way.
The thing is that those believers who come to believe after the Rapture are under the blood!
It is the wrath of GOD! Satan also. (But only because he was permitted)

You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead, which is described in John 5:27-30.

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The great throne judgment is after the 1000 years. The judgment seat of Christ is for believers apparently.

"the purpose of the judgment seat of Christ is to examine a Christian's total life. We will be recompensed for the deeds we have done, whether good or bad (2 Cor. 5:10). The term used there refers to a summing up and estimation of the total pattern of a believer's life. This overall focus should keep us from worrying over every stupid thing we've ever done, or thoughtless sin we have committed. It's a time of reward, not punishment."

What is the purpose of the Judgement Seat of Christ?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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If it is the dead in Christ to be judged that is not all the dead who ever lived. That comes at the end of the 1000 years.
"The time of the dead, that they should be judged
The word κρινειν, to judge, is often used in the sense of to avenge. The dead, here, may mean those who were slain for the testimony of Jesus, and the judging is the avenging of their blood."

Revelation - Chapter 11 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org

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dad said:

If it is the dead in Christ to be judged that is not all the dead who ever lived. That comes at the end of the 1000 years.

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That does not agree with what Jesus said in John 5:27-30.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

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