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Because the brethren know the signs of the day of the Lord. They know that they will be here -as the church till after the moon turns to blood. They are not in darkness as to that day. =the day of Christ
The church will be in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins. The church will be gathered from heaven before the wrath of God begins. There will certainly be people gathered from the earth at this time, but it won't be the mostly Gentile church. The 12,000 from each tribe, first fruits redeemed from the earth, guarantee that there will be harvest of the 12 tribes, from the earth.........at this time.our gathering
day of Christ - not come - except - falling away- and man of sin
and then add in that the moon has to turn to blood first as shown in Joel
The great tribulation ends before the moon turns to blood in the 6th seal.
Who does the dragon chase in Rev. 12? - the brethren -those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ -they are the church
The GOODMAN does not know when the master will return. Those that are ready when He comes will escape the hour of testing......as in........The church will be gone before the tribulation begins. The 70th week is for Israel......as shown by the 144,000 first fruits. The wrath of God will not catch them as a thief. However, they will go through the tribulation.........which ends at the 6th seal. The 7th seal begins the wrath of God.That day - the day of the Lord will not come upon the brethren as a thief - as in they are still here, but won't be surprised - they will not be destroyed, but changed.
in the day of the Lord
in the day of Jesus Christ
/not before that day begins
The archangel is a turtle?Yeah, all that happens in heaven. What is heard on earth? The voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
Which, even if it might have even a germ of truth hidden inside it, has zero relationship to the subject under discussion.Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
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1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
Which, even if it might have even a germ of truth hidden inside it, has zero relationship to the subject under discussion.
You seem to have a mix of scriptures there, some for Israel and some for the Body of Christ. God has purposes for both.
You keep bringing this up as if it was established fact, in an attempt to derail all other discussions about Bible prophecy. But when you introduce such rabbit trails every time we are attempting to discuss entirely different subjects, the only person you discredit is yourself.If you can refute the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, please let us see it.
Without Two Peoples of God, there is no pretrib removal of one of those Peoples of God.
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Yeah, okay. Have to agree with you. Without two peoples of God there is no pretrib removal of one of those peoples of God.If you can refute the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, please let us see it.
Without Two Peoples of God, there is no pretrib removal of one of those Peoples of God.
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Did not Jesus rise from the dead? What that doesn't count?
I thought I mentioned Rapture/Resurrection anyhow didn't I? John 5 says this
Jn 5: 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Talking about judgement, Jesus told them not to marvel, because one day ALL will rise and be judged. That did not mean that Jesus would not rise before that. Nor does it mean that those caught up to meet Him in the air will not be resurrected. Not does it mean that those resurrected when He comes will not be resurrected! Nor does it mean the dead raised for the great judgment after the 1000 years are not resurrected! Nor does it mean that those He saves from the hordes of new rebels following the newly released from prison Satan just before this were not raised up either.
I just don't see your ideas in the scriptures you quote:Regarding the first part of your post which can be found in the book of John 5:28, Jesus is talking about the resurrections after the 1,000 literal year reign.
Therefore the "all " that He speaks of is just that.
He is speaking of all who will be resurrected to life who were born during the 1,000 literal year reign and have accepted Him as Saviour during that time.
Now , the other part of "all" that He is referring to is regarding the resurrection of those unto damnation.
That will be a one time event after the end of the 1,000 literal year reign and during The Great White Throne Judgment.
Now I will provide you information/Scripture regarding the stages of the first resurrection.
One resurrection to life for the just , but at different stages.
1.] Obviously Jesus Christ Himself ( the first fruits)
1 Corinthians 15:20
2.] There were the resurrection of the Jerusalem Saints.
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city , and appeared to many.
3.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Those who are dead in Christ are those who have passed away since the day of Pentacost.
They will resurrect and they and all present believers in Christ will meet the Lord in the air/clouds.
They (the Church /Bride of Christ) will be with the Lord forever.
Amen!!!
The Groom (Jesus Christ) removes the Bride (the Church before His divine judgment falls upon a rebellious and rejecting world .
Also, to prepare the Bride for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, which I believe occurs before the end of the 7 year tribulation and before the 1,000 literal year reign of Christ.
4.] The resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation.
Revelation 20:4
Also note that what the Apostle Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians especially 4:16 was written 29 years before the Book of Revelation and therefore a separate timing of the resurrection of the just .
Guess what else?
5.] The resurrection of the Millenial Saints.
Those who have received Christ as Saviour during the 1,000 literal year reign of Christ.
So there are the stages of the first resurrection of the just to life.
Only one resurrection for them , but at different times and stages.
The two biggest stumbling blocks for those who reject the removal of the Church before the 7 year tribulation is that they don't understand the timing/stages of the resurrection of the just and the other is they confuse the removal of the Church where the dead in Christ and all present alive believers meet the Lord in the air/clouds where He doesn't come to the earth whereas during The Second Coming of Christ He comes back with the Church and literally sets foot upon the Mount of Olives before Jerusalem.
Two seperate and distinct events my friend.
I hope this helps clear up any confusion and brings some light and clarity to your questions.
All glory be to God now and forever !
Amen!
⚘
I agree with you and respect Dr. Brown.Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.
For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.
Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"
Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"
This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"
The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"
This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"
2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!
The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.
If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.
God Bless!
Friend , by this quoted post of yours you seem to be very confused in general.I just don't see your ideas in the scriptures you quote:
1. Are you trying to say then that the rapture of the church is a resurrection of living people only? Your writing doesn't seem clear to me. I thought you were talking about resurrection phases. Christ's resurrection is the "firstfruits" which is the prototype of our resurrection. It doesn't mean that it is in phases.
2. How do you know the Matt. 27 passage is a resurrection to glorification? If so, then why does Paul not mention it in his arguments against the resurrection already taking place? Why does he not explain the resurrection phases if that is what he believed? Instead, he argues that the resurrection has not yet happened, and won't happen until the man of lawlessness is revealed. In every context that I read speaking of resurrection, it appears to me that it is talking about one and only one. Could those saints have been raised to die again, as Lazarus was? It seems to me that this is a vague scripture to base doctrine on.
3. The 1 Thes. 4 passage doesn't appear to me to be talking about a separate resurrection. It sounds like the one and only resurrection of the righteous that I see in scripture. I think you have a burden of proof to show that there is more than one resurrection of the righteous.
4. I can't see that Rev. 20:4 is a separate resurrection.It sounds like the one and only resurrection of the righteous that I see in scripture. I think you have a burden of proof to show that there is more than one resurrection of the righteous and that these passages refer to completely different times. IOW, you need to prove from scripture by exegesis of all passages relating to resurrection that your idea is true, contrasted against the idea of a single post-tribulational resurrection. A few proof texts with your opinion doesn't do it for me.
5. Who says there will be people saved during the millenium? It just says "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years was completed." It doesn't say that is other resurrection is one of the just. I think you have a burden of proof beyond your eschatological construct.
TD
I don't believe in your "code," since the Little Horn in Dan. 8 and the Statue in Dan. 2 came and went many centuries ago. I believe in the historical accounts that show those prophecies fulfilled already.Verse 11 is not a new vision per se, its all about the Church/Bride in Heaven. Its not a part of the Chronological Order of the BoR pr se, it covers the full 7 years. We Marry the Lamb, then return with Jesus to Armageddon to see the Beast defeated.
It will be joyful, darkness is defeated my brother, what better Marriage gift could we receive ? You are looking at the carnage, I am not, Jesus defeats them with a SPOKEN WORD just like the Creation, this is why Daniel says over and over that this Little Horn in Dan. 8 and the Statue in Dan. 2 will be defeated WITHOUT HAND (by the Holy Spirit). This is what is meant by Jesus having the Sword of the Spirit, he speaks the victory. The blood, the flesh being eaten is prose meant to tell us it is the Armageddon War.
The whole reason God tells us things in code is so we will know whilst the world doesn't know. Thus the FINE LINEN is the Righteousness of the Saints was to point us towards who the armies were with Jesus Christ, and to tell us the Church had been Married and thus received her new Glorious Bodies, thus we are now IMMORTAL !! We do not go to Heaven with these flesh bodies of Sin, we die at the Rapture and only the Spirit man is Raptured. LIKE THE DEAD IN Christ, who have no bodies and are raised, we DIE in an instant/twinkling of an eye then we are taken to Heaven to be with the Lord, receive out Glorious bodies, then return with Christ. Jess taking the reigns of earth back over will be joyus my brother !!
You're not convincing. I need to see detail and exegesis, not talk about "code."Like I stated above, it's a Metaphor to show us what is going on. In Matt. 24:28 Jesus tells the Disciples/Jews what to look for as per his coming, he says the eagles will be where the Carcass is at. This is meant to tell them that he will not be in the Desert, or in the Secret Chambers, but will come from the eastern skies instead, and he will be at Armageddon. The fowls/eagles are always where the Carcass is at, and thus Jesus is telling them, I will be at Armageddon.
Of course its literal, God doesn't waste time writing prose brother. It's all ENCODED, but if you understand the code, you then get the literal message. Japan and Germany encoded their messages in WW2, once we cracked the code, of course they were LITERAL MESSAGES.
The Symbolic things also have a literal meaning. God used codes/symbolism, and thus we are to understand it while he world doesn't understand it, of course not everyone is called to prophecy.
That's the only way to learn, seek out the truths.
So you don't think that we are in white robes in the spirit right now? White robes is a metaphor for righteousness, as typed in Zech. 3:1-5. I just don't see your idea in it.Technically you would be right, it could be different, but it is not.... we get our White Robes via going to Heaven, it is our new Glorious Bodies, then we return with Jesus to fight the Beast and his Armies that are STILL ON EARTH. This whole vision/picture is about the Bride in the Marriage Chambers and then her Marriage Supper. That is why it's shown in such fashion. The Marriage and the Marriage Supper. It's a Continuous 7 day event of a traditional Jewish Wedding, hence we are shown what happens over the 7 YEAR PERIOD of the Bride in Heaven, who then goes forth to the Marriage Supper.
I don't care about your credentials. I'm looking for real exegesis using reliable rules of Hermeneutics. Only that would impress me. Your "quick and easy" proof texts don't cut it for me. This is why I keep asking questions, because it doesn't make sense. How do you know that the Beast is not the Roman Empire? It seems to me that is what a 1st Century reader would understand.I don't make up stuff, I have been a preacher 30 years and was called unto Prophecy brother. I love what do, but I am no fool brother, I don't make up stuff and say it's of God, I agree many do. I am telling you how the BoR goes, whether you can grasp that or not has no bearing on what I understand, its not even that hard to understand that Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start at the First Seal. Rev. 12 and 13 have 1260 days as a CENTRAL THEME, the Woman (Israel) is chased in the Wilderness for 1260 days and we know THE BEAST of Rev. 13 rules for 1260 days.
If I have to read your book to understand Rev., how is that any different process than cults do? This is why I am suspicious of constructs that use secret coded meanings to "reveal truth." I usually stay out of Eschatology for this reason. I'm just asking questions.Since Rev. 17 is the Kings who come TO POWER with the Beast ONE HOUR (42 Months) then we know they must kill her (Harlot/False Religion) off after the come to power which lasts 42 months. As per Rev. 18, Babylon or the World getting Judged happens over a 3.5 year timeframe in which God's Wrath is poured out on Mankind. I have had a thread/blog on other sites, up on Babbylon for a long time.
Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained
This looks like a boast to me. It makes me suspicious of anything else you say. I'm only impressed with solid exegesis.That's a good thing, always tests the spirits. But since I understand it, and I do, id you look for 10 years, then figure out, hey, that guy was correct, you be wasting time bro.....LOL.
My trust is in what the Bible says, not in what people say about it.But on the real side, never believe men, that is what I do, some men we can trust more than others if we have a relationship with them over time, but we are all fallible.
But what I told you is correct as per the timeline. So study it.
God Bless.
Sorry we aren't on the same page. I thought I was clear that I believe the scripture speaks on one single resurrection of the just. The only exception is Jesus' resurrection which is the "firstfruits" or prototype.Friend , by this quoted post of yours you seem to be very confused in general.
I explained what I meant concisely and to the point.
Yet you respond with even more questions and actually imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.
That being said , do you think the resurrection of the just happens at the same time?
This is a very simple yes or no question.
Yes or no, what say you?
PS. Most of your questions were already answered in my last post to you.
Not sure where the confusion is.
Friend , I provided several Scriptural verses that state otherwise.Sorry we aren't on the same page. I thought I was clear that I believe the scripture speaks on one single resurrection of the just. The only exception is Jesus' resurrection which is the "firstfruits" or prototype.
I do not believe that one resurrection is at different times. In my mind that would be several resurrections. I just don't see scripture teaching that.
TD
Not all resurrections of the just happen at the same time.
You keep bringing this up as if it was established fact,
Not my idea.Try to ignore what Jesus said in John 5:27-30, and maybe you can make your idea work...
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