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pre-trib rapture?

stenerson

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(emphasis added)

You don't believe in a second coming? Really? You're saying he won't return at all. ;)

LOL! got me there. :thumbsup:

The truth is that early Church fathers (pre Roman Catholicism) differed on this. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Cyprian, and Justin Martyr from what I've heard were Amillennialist. There is no Papist conspiracy here. Though I'm sure Roman Catholic history has theologians all over the map on these issues.
This is the age in which Satan is bound by a stronger man and his house is being pillaged. Satan was defeated on the cross. Christ openly made a spectacle of him (Satan). According to Christ "now the ruler of this world will be cast out." Salvation is going out to all the world. Countless multitudes from every nation, kindred,tribe tongue have been redeemed. Christ will return not only to gather His elect, but also for the final judgement. I believe the clear passages of Christ and the apostles are to be used to understand the symbolic and apocalyptic imagery of the prophets and Revelation. Christ and the Apostles do warn us that towards the very end of this age Satan will be let loose with a vengeance for a short time spawning extreme lawlessness and Apostasy.
 
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JM

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Well, I know it's not one of those disagreements that can realistically be resolved, here. You tell me one thing and my college professors told me another. I don't think it's any coincidence, however, that the church's rejection of Premillennialism took place about the same time that the Catholic church came into power, and I don't think it's any coincidence that this rejection lasted until a little while after that church's power was broken by the Reformation.

It’s often said, “correlation is causation” and that is true in this case.

The Roman church held sway when the Roman Empire declined leaving a power vacuum. The parish church structure was in place so the state recognized church stepped in and functioned as a secular authority as well. The barbarian tribes pounded the Western part of the Roman Empire so Roman secular authority moved East. The first person to actually hold papal type powers was Pope Gregory called The Great ( 540 – 604). True, the papacy often claimed authority over the whole church earlier than Gregory but the other Patriarchs kept the Popes at bay. The time frame in which Premillennialism was rejected was also the same time frame the Gnostic Gospels were rejected, the canon declared against heretics, the Trinity was being worked out, etc. It was the church, not the Roman state church, but the church universal that recognized the leading of God the Holy Spirit in these matters. What we have is an evangelical tradition of associating Amillennialism with liberalism. This is a tradition and cannot stand scrutiny.

Here’s something interesting to note since we are discussing prophecy:

The Emperor Phocas made a decree claiming the Pope of Rome was the universal Bishop of the church in 606. John Gill notes; “if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reigns will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable.” Gill might have it correct. Napoleon gave the death blow to political Rome but Rome took some time to fade away. The Pope lost secular authority in 1866. Wikipedia: “After defeating the papal army on 18 September 1860 at the Battle of Castelfidardo, and on 30 September at Ancona, Victor Emmanuel took all the Papal territories except Latium with Rome. In 1866 he granted Pius IX the Law of Guarantees (13 May 1871) which gave the Pope the use of the Vatican but denied him sovereignty over this territory, nevertheless granting him the right to send and receive ambassadors and a budget of 3.25 million liras annually. Pius IX officially rejected this offer (encyclical Ubi nos, 15 May 1871), retaining his claim to all the conquered territory.” Interesting. Gill seems to have used the book of Revelation to actually predict the last battle Papal Rome would have resulting in its loss of political power.

The Catholic church may not have been the original inventors of their amillennial idea, but they certainly were the first to really spread it. I understand that Catholic amillennialism is different than protestant amillennialism, in the sense that the Catholic version actually resembles a sort of Dominionism, but, other than that, it's just a matter of how you define the church.

No, not really. We see a consistent witness of the scriptural fact of Amil. Christians in the East, before 500 AD, during the dark ages, during the Reformation right up until today have held to Amil. The same consistent witness cannot be said for Premil. Luther, Zwingli and Calvin also rejected Premil for Post or Amil type views. It was the radical Anabaptists, the Freewillers and Spiritual enthusiasts (similar to Charismatics) that looked for the physical or literal millennial period of time on earth. This same millennial period was also one of the given reasons for the Pharisees rejecting Jesus Christ, they were looking for a physical millennial reign, but Christ told them otherwise.

For the record, I don't identify with either premillennial or amillennial thought. I've bounced back and forth between the two enough to know that both sides have their share of problems. Amillennialism is just highly allegorical, whether it's Roman Catholic or protestant, and I can't seem to get through the Apocalypse with an amillennialist without somehow getting entangled in some obscure symbol of a symbol.

I shared a link that contain an excellent outline of the hermeneutic principles of Amillennialism. It should help clear up any confusion.

We would get stuck with wars that weren't wars, in locations that weren't locations, involving nations from places that were not really those places, led by a beast who wasn't really a beast, against God's nation, which wasn't really a nation, covering a stated period of time that wasn't really a specific period of time.

How so? You would need to unpack those ideas a little for me to comment on. If you are assuming Revelation is to be read and understood as evolving, without any recapitulation or repeating of events…than yes, that would be an issue.

At the end of the day, after wading through all of that, I realized that if I were to be amillennialist, then I really knew nothing at all regarding the final prophecies, and they could mean almost anything at all.

It is good to remain humble and submit to scripture.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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LOL! got me there. :thumbsup:

The truth is that early Church fathers (pre Roman Catholicism) differed on this. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Cyprian, and Justin Martyr from what I've heard were Amillennialist. There is no Papist conspiracy here. Though I'm sure Roman Catholic history has theologians all over the map on these issues.

This is the age in which Satan is bound by a stronger man and his house is being pillaged. Satan was defeated on the cross. Christ openly made a spectacle of him (Satan). According to Christ "now the ruler of this world will be cast out." Salvation is going out to all the world. Countless multitudes from every nation, kindred,tribe tongue have been redeemed. Christ will return not only to gather His elect, but also for the final judgement. I believe the clear passages of Christ and the apostles are to be used to understand the symbolic and apocalyptic imagery of the prophets and Revelation. Christ and the Apostles do warn us that towards the very end of this age Satan will be let loose with a vengeance for a short time spawning extreme lawlessness and Apostasy.

That is also my understanding as well. I posted this in another thread:

Millennialism was a minority belief held by a small but vocal group in Asia minor. It was never a universal position of the church and was rejected for many reasons but the one I recall as the strongest reason for doing so was based on the idea that when a person died they had to wait in a state of soul sleep (can't remember how it was described) until Christ returned. When Christ returned the soul was resurrected with the body and lived during the millennial period.

I logged into Amazon to find the author of the title I wanted to recommend and found a great review that outlines the work. In the review you'll find ample evidence why the church rejected millennialism.

The Review: Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Millennial Thought in Early Christianity: Charles E. Hill: 9780802846341: Books - Amazon.ca

There is a common misconception among some Christians that early Church's eschatology was universally premillennial and only gradually did this premillennialism (or chiliasm) fall out of favor with the credit (or blame) usually given to Origen and Augustine. This claim, often put forward by those clinging to the dispensationalist eschatology, overlooks the fact that the earliest Church Fathers have no trace of chiliasm in the eschatalogical passages of their writings. It is only in the second century that chiiasm appears and goes on to be the more widely held position - although never universally so - and then fades again in popularity. The questions then become: Where did chiliasm originate? Why did it become so widespread? What led to its demise?

In Regnum Caelorum, Charles E. Hill explores these question and in the process arrives at some ground breaking conclusions on the connection between the rise of chiliasm and the disemination of certain beliefs in the nature of the intermediate state between the believer's earthly passing and resurrection popularized by two pseudopigraphical Jewish apocalyptic writings that had attained some status within the fledgling Christian community. These two writings - II Baruch and IV Ezra - intimately linked the belief that souls would remain in Hades until the establishment of the millennial kingdom and not go to heaven as believed by others.

Hill begins by noting that during the height of chiliasm, its most ardent defenders did state that there were true believers in Christ who did not hold the chiliast position. One of the most famous was St. Irenaeus of Lyon who believed that Christians not holding to a chiliast position were troubled because they - wrongly in his mind - believed the souls of the faithful departed would go to heaven and a subsequent return to an earthly millennial kingdom would be a step back from the glories of the beatific vision. Instead, St. Irenaeus asserted that their souls would remain in Hades - located in the bowels of the earth - unitl Christ returns and not in heaven (with an exception made for the martyrs) and so such concerns were baseless.

With a possible link in Irenaeus of chiliasm and an intermediate state in Hades, Hill then examines other chiliasts for further evidence of a similar connection. Papias, a well known figure of the early second century Church whose writings we now only have in fragements quoted by St. Irenaeus and others, held eschatalogical views that were dependant upon the pseudopigraphical II Baruch. Since II Baruch ties in chiliasm and the view of an intermediate state in Hades, it is likely that Papias held a similar outlook and it was through Papias' influence that St. Irenaeus came to the a similar position.

Turning to a chiliast between St. Justin Martyr, a chiliast whose writings appeared between Papias and St. Irenaeus, Hill finds a similar connection between chiliasm and Hades as an intermediate state. There is some dispute as to the consistency in his writings on both matters, but where his he assert chiliasm, the subterranean intermediate state assertion also appears. Hill then turns to other Christian chiliasts throughout the ante-Nicene period and finds that, with one exception, all of them also hold to the belief in a subterranean intermediate state in Hades (with some but not all making an exception for the martyrs). The one exception is late - St. Methodius of Olympus at the turn of the fourth century - and was reacting to criticism by Origen by attempting to fuse elements of chiliast and non-chiliast eschatologies. Thus a strong correspondence of the two beliefs is established.

Having established a link within chiliasm - possibly through Papias - to the eschatalogical views expressed in Jewish pseudopigraphia, Hill takes a look at Jewish eschatalogical speculation in the peiod. There was a great deal of messianic fervor within Judaism prior to the time of Christ and this heightened after the shock of the Roman destruction of the Temple in Jersualem. From that date until the Roman's crushing the Bar Kochba revolt (~130 A.D.), an intense period of apocalyptic speculation occurred in Phariseeic circles and it was during this period that II Baruch and IV Ezra - the only Jewish books to link chiliasm and the subterranean intermediate state - were from this period. The interaction of early Christians with Jews during this period certainly would have familiarized them with such expectations and Papias, St. Justin Martyr, and the author of the Epistle of Barnabas all demonstrate a dependancy on one or both of these documents. It was through this influence that we see that such beliefs entered into the Christian consciousness at the turn of the second century A.D. Hill further notes that the entry of such beliefs is marked by some gnostic writers reacting to the chiliast belief and in so confirming its linkage to the belief in a subterranean intermediate state.

Hill then begins to examine the writings of non-chiliasts in the ante-Nicene Church. First examining the writings of the first century Apostolic Fathers, he demonstrates both the lack of chiliastic beliefs and a of belief in a subterranean intermediate state. In fact, there is strong evidence of a contrary belief in a heavenly intermediate state. This pattern is also reflected in the writings of non-chiliast Christians, Christian pseudopigraphia, and Christian martyrologies of the second century.

Hill then tackles the issue of the Montanists. The excesses of the Montanist movement (and its subsequent censure by the Church) are often credited with the decline of chiliasm on the assumption that Montanists were largely chiliasts. However, Hill points out that the patristic critics of Montanism - including many who ardently opposed chiliasm - did not bring up any such link. The misconception may result from the fact that Tertullian, by far the best known figure to embrace Montanism, was also a chiliast but he was a chiliast long before he was a Montanist. In fact, the description of Montanist beliefs we find in the Church Fathers indicates a variety of eschatalogical positions. There is no doubt, however, that an erroneous link between the two became established later.

The author then turns to the period when the tide begins to turn against chiliasm. He shows this change in fortunes corresponds to an eschatalogical shift to a position that increasingly looked heavenword. In the third century, the chiliast position would fall out of favor by this trend and the accompanying criticism of the theologians of the Alexandrian school who recoiled at the earthly emphasis of the chiliast eschatology.

Having established a strong connection between views on the intermediate state and position on chiliasm (chiliasm/subterranean intermediate state vs. non-chiliasm/heavenly intermediate state), Hill looks to the eschatalogical passages of the New Testament to see whether a millennial view can be clearly articulated or at least hinted at by a view of the intermediate state of the faithful departed. In demonstrating no advocacy of a chiliast position in the Epistles and the Gospels, he also points out the many references to a heavenly abode for the faithful departed. This is still further evidence that these writings were not advocating a chiliast view. With this in mind, he then tackles the Book of Revelation and shows how the imagery is best understood in the context of a Christian community that had no understanding of chiliasm. He points out how the imagery deviates greatly from that normally associated with a chiliast view and concludes that later chiliast readings were not in keeping with the original intent and were likely the result of imposing a chiliastic matrix derived from Jewish pseudopigraphia upon the text.

Hill then closes the book by tying together some loose ends from earlier chapters. He gives a summary of his findings and points out how in the revival of chiliasm in elements of the radical reformation, the same issue of a retreat from the heavenly abode was confronted and was solved by introducing the idea of soul sleep. Although not mentioned, one could also point out that contemporary dispensationalists evade this issue by dividing the people of God into God's earthly people (believing Jews) and heavenly people (Christians) and the millennium is only for the former. Hill then returns to the statement of St. Irenaeus that good Christians disagreed on this issue and from earlier studies concludes who he may have had in mind. The author also points to the evidence supporting the belief that chiliasm was not something St. Irenaeus inherited from St. Polycarp but departed from earlier beliefs to an alternate eschatology that he believed was better able to combat gnosticism. He then gives an exegesis of Revelation 20 using the writings of ante-Nicene non-chiliasts and concludes with some final remarks on New Testament Eschatology.

In its thoroughness in studying the eschatological views of the early Church, Regnum Caelorum puts to rest the idea that the earliest Christian eschatology was universally premillennial. In so doing, the linkage of millennial views with corresponding outlooks on the intermediate state links the chiliast eschatology with views that are objectively rejected by the New Testament texts. For anyone interested in the development of eschatology in the early Church, it is absolutely essential reading. [end of review]

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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stenerson

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That is also my understanding as well. I posted this in another thread:

Millennialism was a minority belief held by a small but vocal group in Asia minor. It was never a universal position of the church and was rejected for many reasons but the one I recall as the strongest reason for doing so was based on the idea that when a person died they had to wait in a state of soul sleep (can't remember how it was described) until Christ returned. When Christ returned the soul was resurrected with the body and lived during the millennial period.

Interesting, that's what the SDA cult members I've conversed with believe. Except they believe that the millenium will be spent with Christ in Heaven whilst Satan is left alone, bound in an empty, destroyed and desolated Earth.
 
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JM

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Interesting, that's what the SDA cult members I've conversed with believe. Except they believe that the millenium will be spent with Christ in Heaven whilst Satan is left alone, bound in an empty, destroyed and desolated Earth.

The SDA changes a few things but essentially they hold to what was called "the Protestant eschatology." You will find this view, now called Historicism, expressed in the Reformed Confessions including the London Baptist Confessions. The very first full commentary on Revelation written in the 5th century was a Historicist commentary. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli were all Historicist.

Most Roman Catholics were Historicists as well but they had a problem of the papacy being identified as antichrist over and over again by their own monks, commentators, etc. Ttwo Jesuit, at different points in history shortly after the Reformation, devised two different types of interpretation. Both were seeking to remove suspicion off the papacy by reinterpreting Revelation and Daniel as taking place either in the future (Dispensationalism is futurist) or the past (Preterism). This is a historical fact. Of course it doesn’t mean either view is incorrect, just that Jesuit were responsible for them and the Anglo-Catholic movement in the Anglican Church of England was responsible for disseminating these views. The Anglo-Catholics wanted to reunite with Rome or at the very least borrow heavily from their liturgy and ritual. The main commentary on Revelation produced shortly after the Oxford Movement period (1830’s – 1850’s) was written by an old school Protestants and titled “Horae Apocalypticae.” Spurgeon noted this work was a “the standard” for Prots.

I have more than a few historical notes, quotes and comments on my blog if you want to have a look.

http://feileadhmor.wordpress.com/category/historicism-2/
 
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stenerson

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The SDA changes a few things but essentially they hold to what was called "the Protestant eschatology." You will find this view, now called Historicism, expressed in the Reformed Confessions including the London Baptist Confessions.

I was referring to the belief that the saved dead wait in a state of soul sleep until Christ returns. Though they believe that Christ will destroy the wicked that are alive on Earth during this 2nd return and bind Satan for a thousand years on this isolated Earth. Then after this millennium spent in Heaven Christ will return to Earth with His Saints. This will be the resurrection of the wicked which Christ will allow to join forces with Satan (who is now loosed) and they all get together to make war with Christ.
They also teach that Satan is the scapegoat of Leviticus. They believe that the sins of the ransomed are transferred to Satan during this millennium period who bears them to a desolate place (the desolated Earth)..
 
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JM

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I was referring to the belief that the saved dead wait in a state of soul sleep until Christ returns. Though they believe that Christ will destroy the wicked that are alive on Earth during this 2nd return and bind Satan for a thousand years on this isolated Earth. Then after this millennium spent in Heaven Christ will return to Earth with His Saints. This will be the resurrection of the wicked which Christ will allow to join forces with Satan (who is now loosed) and they all get together to make war with Christ.
They also teach that Satan is the scapegoat of Leviticus. They believe that the sins of the ransomed are transferred to Satan during this millennium period who bears them to a desolate place (the desolated Earth)..

:thumbsup: Got it. My mistake.
 
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JM

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No problem. Thanks for the links. I plan on reading more from this John Gill, I first heard of him recently via Don Fortner quoting him. Good stuff!

I've devoted a lot of time to Gill's works. I've read his Systematics more than a few times, his sermons, polemics, etc.

I have some selected quotes here as well:
John Gill | Feileadh Mor
 
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moonbeam

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I've devoted a lot of time to Gill's works. I've read his Systematics more than a few times, his sermons, polemics, etc.


JM - Judging by your posts #22 and #23 you have the ability to articulate your thoughts in a reasonably thorough manner.

You indicate by your comments that you have a very sound knowledge of Dr John Gill's works, and thought, concerning the entirety of his published works.

You also promote your blog where you expound on those points of theology [of Gill's] with which you are enamoured, chiefly justification in, and from eternity.


Why then are you unwilling to respond to my reasonable enquiries concerning justification in, and from eternity on the dedicated thread concerning that subject ?

You have the ability to articulate the subject matter in your own words….[without cutting and pasting Gill's writings on the matter]

Why then will you not permit the matter to be explored….by simply refusing to engage with my enquires and objections ?


PS - In light of your post I thought I would take the opportunity to enquire.

.
 
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