Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

A Brother In Christ · Jan 13, 2009

Super Kal said:
and yet you compare scripture with the teachings of man, for the Bible says we are one in Christ (Gal. 3:27-29)

who have I quote every time....

SCRIPTURE .... GOD WORD

what food law are you following

Big Mouth Nana · Jan 13, 2009

A Brother In Christ said:
nope some like putting there feelings, ideas, opinions

does any of that matter... no

Some like to dine at the Bible Buffet Of Confusion also... pick what they want, and throw out what they refuse or can't understand. No wonder the church has headed for apostasy!!!! Satan is a busy little buggar!!

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 13, 2009

Big Mouth Nana said:
Some like to dine at the Bible Buffet Of Confusion also... pick what they want, and throw out what they refuse or can't understand. No wonder the church has headed for apostasy!!!! Satan is a busy little buggar!!

Do you recognize any of those on this board

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Big Mouth Nana said:
Some like to dine at the Bible Buffet Of Confusion also... pick what they want, and throw out what they refuse or can't understand. No wonder the church has headed for apostasy!!!! Satan is a busy little buggar!!

Well, it certainly has been confusing. Paul said the point of that passage (2 Thess 2) was "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him" and then supposedly said absolutely nothing about it?
He goes on to say, "Now you know what is restraining him" as if he just told us. But we are left scratching our heads because not only is there no mention of the gathering to Christ but who are we supposed to think the restrainer is when the translation says, "falling away" instead of "departure".

There is an obvious error in translation.

Super Kal · Jan 13, 2009

A Brother In Christ said:
who have I quote every time....

SCRIPTURE .... GOD WORD

what food law are you following

really?
I wonder: who originally taught your so called Biblical teaching, because I guarantee you, it sure wasn't God...

Romans 2:26-29
26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

Big Mouth Nana said:
I have often wondered if there would be any significant difference between pre-tribbers going through the tribulation then post trib believers..which I am post. The bible states in John 8:32... And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Does that mean that those who do not see the truth are in more serious peril during the tribulation then those who are post who have received the truth?
The reason that I have these questions is because I was pre-trib for 35 years..post for about 5 years now. When I was pre-trib, it seemed like I had less worries about what was coming on the earth because I wouldn't be here. When I first discovered that post trib catching away was the truth, I was in shock for awhile, but now I am at peace knowing what to expect...and actually more grateful to God for showing me the truth since it has sunk in. In 2 Tim 4:3-4 it states this... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Now I believe that this has been going on since "whoever" started the pre-trib "fable." It has followed a long line of well known bible scholars/teachers such as John Darby, even as most recent, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHay, and even preachers are expounding it on the Christian channels on TV. John Hagee, the pompous hypocrite that he is, said one day while I was watching 3 years ago, that the post trib rapture is the biggest lie that Satan ever perpetrated. He even said..DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT!! I haven't watched him since.
Now, I am wondering if people that follow this teaching and believe in a pre-trib rapture are going to be totally blind sided once the tribulation hits. God expects every one of us to search His Word for ourselves, and not rely on the truth of mans gospel from the pulpit, or what we have heard from our families carried down to us. Will this be considered believing a Satanic deception and pay the penalty in the end? If they can't even see the post trib rapture in the Word, will they even know who the Antichrist is once he is revealed? The bible doesn't really say anything about believing a "time line" lie, but it does say something about believing unsound doctrine. I DO believe that Satan started this lie for a very good reason...what is that reason and for what purpose?
I do believe that those who are full of what Word will know what is going on once this starts..unless they freak out thinking..OH NO, the rapture didn't happen. What do I do now??!! These are just some thoughts that I have had roaming through my head for awhile.

I think you'r right. I recon that people will see what's happening slowly, and begin to realise that they arn't going to escape the tribulation. I think it will be a personal crisis for those people, some of them. I see it from another perspective, because i was never taught it.. i was brought up Roman Catholic. I think there will be some panic, and people won't know what to do, or who to turn to. It's a sad state of affairs.
PS. is that picture of Obama with a halo doctored? I saw a similar thing recently with photos of Bush, also presented as a saint with a halo..
what a laugh.

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

I'm starting to believe ezek33 in that it is possibly a demonic deception.

To claim that apostasia is a departure from where you stand via rapture
rather than a departure from where you stand doctrinally is absolutely
evidence that something is not right. The bias and assumption that the
pretrib rapture exists before examining the historical use of the word is
completely unbelievable (to stick to the position - I used to believe
apostasia was the departure of the church because it was wrongfully
taught to me by those who were not scholars).

No one has addressed the fact the pretribulational rapture position is
less than 175 years old. That the post trib position is called the "historical
premillennial" position for a reason. I also find Jen's repeated skirt of English
word games to be ignoring of the fact that it is called the pre"tribulational"
rapture position for a reason. Only God knows the hearts of those individuals
who would be willing to ask protection for whether or not the evangelical
church has been deceived in this one particular area of eschatology in order
to fulfill 2 Peter 3: 3,4. If the rapture did take place, then this would not
make sense for the world to make this claim in the last days. HOWEVER, if
there is NO rapture before the anti-Christ then guess what, the mocking
makes perfect sense.

One rapture. One Second Coming. One correct biblical position without
all of the induction and picking verses here and there.

In Christ,
Michael

Covenant Heart · Jan 13, 2009

A Simile Uses 'Like' Or 'As.'

Paul was using a simile as Paul often did.

Get real! You may as well tell us that you're a Biblical redactor who makes whatever corrections you deem necessary to maintain what you consider sound doctrine.

The gathering to Christ is a departure from the earth.
To be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord.
To be at home in the body is to be away from the Lord.

We haven't nailed down the meaning of 'apostasy' in 2Th 2:3. Always run to a new fort to take the stand.

This is a bit like arguing:

'Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him" (Lu 4:35)!
'Let women keep silent in the churches; they are not to speak' (1Co 14:34).

Guess what conclusion is to be drawn! I'm guessing no one wants that.

So we shouldn't use the Scriptures in this helter-skelter manner.

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

pre-trib is happy. facing up to all that bad stuff is gloomy, especially as we realise that we are already heading into it. I think it's to do with what you have been taught. Or perhaps not, as i dont think this subject is taught in churches, so it must be from books. No it's the pastors that have been taught it, and then write a lot of books about it.
I was reading the other day... (paraphrase).. two women were grinding corn, one was taken, the other left. What does that mean.. i read the surrounding passages and could not find it out of context to suggest otherwise.. but i still don't go with pre-trib.

Matthew 24:40 - "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

This to me suggests that there is a rapture, but the timing of it is the question.. at the Lord's Day probably, at the true return of Christ, just prior to the ressurection of the dead.

Matthew 24:30, 31 - Jesus continued, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another."

depends how you define the heaven here.. heaven can mean sky, space, or the heaven, .. another dimension. If it's from heaven, and perhaps space, then it's a gathering of the elect, and the angels, to invade the earth for the showdown.

If it's just the sky, then it's the elect that have ascended into the sky to meet the Lord.. the 'clouds of heaven' suggests that it's the sky that is being talked about.

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Covenant Heart said:
A Simile Uses 'Like' Or 'As.'

Get real! You may as well tell us that you're a Biblical redactor who makes whatever corrections you deem necessary to maintain what you consider sound doctrine.

We haven't nailed down the meaning of 'apostasy' in 2Th 2:3. Always run to a new fort to take the stand.

This is a bit like arguing:

Guess what conclusion is to be drawn! I'm guessing no one wants that.

So we shouldn't use the Scriptures in this helter-skelter manner.

It's like talking to a brick wall.

Ok, folks. YOU EXPLAIN IT. ANSWER THESE TWO QUESTIONS:

1. Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him"...so who/what is it? WHO IS THE RESTRAINER? Paul obviously just told us in that passage because he says, "NOW YOU KNOW".

2. The point of the passage was, "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him" and then it supposedly says absolutely nothing about it.
Explain that.

And don't run away either...you guys have given me grief and at least three of you said it's of the devil, so stand up and explain it! The TRUTH will win here! My guess is that you can't explain it and that you don't know who the restrainer is because APOSTASIA does not mean falling away from the church in that passage.

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

hiscosmicgoldfish2 said:
pre-trib is happy. facing up to all that bad stuff is gloomy, especially as we realise that we are already heading into it. I think it's to do with what you have been taught. Or perhaps not, as i dont think this subject is taught in churches, so it must be from books. No it's the pastors that have been taught it, and then write a lot of books about it.

...or maybe it's Paul that taught it based on Isaiah 26:19-21, Psalm 50 and Psalm 75, Joel 2, and maybe even Song of Songs 2.

Like the Bereans, we should be able to consult the Scriptures (the law, the prophets, and the psalms) to see if what Paul says is true, right?

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
It's like talking to a brick wall.

Ok, folks. YOU EXPLAIN IT. ANSWER THESE TWO QUESTIONS:

1. Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him"...so who/what is it? WHO IS THE RESTRAINER? Paul obviously just told us in that passage because he says, "NOW YOU KNOW".

2. The point of the passage was, "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him" and then it supposedly says absolutely nothing about it.
Explain that.

And don't run away either...you guys have given me grief and at least three of you said it's of the devil, so stand up and explain it! The TRUTH will win here! My guess is that you can't explain it and that you don't know who the restrainer is because APOSTASIA does not mean falling away from the church in that passage.

Still waiting....

UNBELIEVABLE! Where'd you all go? What's wrong? Can't you explain it?

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
What is the gathering to Christ?

Michael - "It's the rapture at the end of the seven year period"

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Your problem is that you missed a very basic exegetical principle. The
verse prior vs. 16 tells you when it is. In fact, vs. 15 tells you that
those living will NOT precede those who fall asleep or die. So the
question is once again begged "How can you have Christians falling
asleep after a rapture? They don't. The deduction corrects the
induction of scripture. These verses don't say this takes place
before the seven years. What they DO say is that there is a "trumpet"
and in another verse it is called the "last trumpet." Can anyone here
count to seven? Explanations using induction should be quickly dismissed
with the common sense deductions throughout the rest of scripture.
Agenda is what keeps a person in deception. Vs. 16 even says the
Lord Himself will descend. That sounds an aweful lot to me like the
2nd Coming, but explanations using induction will still seek to not
believe the obvious. Once again, the previous verse says the dead
"in Christ" will rise first? How can those "in Christ" rise first if they
are dying afterwards???? The deduction corrects the induction of
pre-trib nonsense. Those "in Christ" dying in the "seven year period"
whether "wrath" or "tribulation" or whatever English word you want
to deceive yourself with as though it actually changes the facts,
indicates that those remaining are those who witness the 2nd Coming
and the text is more than clear. Trumpet, descend, dead in Christ
rise first, etc. all of these things exegetically put these verses
at the 2nd Coming, and the only way out of this exegesis is to come
with the text with an agenda.

I hope you will no longer do that.

One rapture. One 2nd Coming and Descent. One correct biblical
position.

Michael

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
Your problem is that you missed a very basic exegetical principle. The
verse prior vs. 16 tells you when it is. In fact, vs. 15 tells you that
those living will NOT precede those who fall asleep or die. So the
question is once again begged "How can you have Christians falling
asleep after a rapture? They don't. The deduction corrects the
induction of scripture. These verses don't say this takes place
before the seven years. What they DO say is that there is a "trumpet"
and in another verse it is called the "last trumpet." Can anyone here
count to seven? Explanations using induction should be quickly dismissed
with the common sense deductions throughout the rest of scripture.
Agenda is what keeps a person in deception. Vs. 16 even says the
Lord Himself will descend. That sounds an aweful lot to me like the
2nd Coming, but explanations using induction will still seek to not
believe the obvious. Once again, the previous verse says the dead
"in Christ" will rise first? How can those "in Christ" rise first if they
are dying afterwards???? The deduction corrects the induction of
pre-trib nonsense. Those "in Christ" dying in the "seven year period"
whether "wrath" or "tribulation" or whatever English word you want
to deceive yourself with as though it actually changes the facts,
indicates that those remaining are those who witness the 2nd Coming
and the text is more than clear. Trumpet, descend, dead in Christ
rise first, etc. all of these things exegetically put these verses
at the 2nd Coming, and the only way out of this exegesis is to come
with the text with an agenda.

I hope you will no longer do that.

One rapture. One 2nd Coming and Descent. One correct biblical
position.

Michael

You (and Ezek33, SuperKal, Covenant Heart, BigMouthNana) have two questions to answer. You are not going to sit back and tell me I'm spreading a false teaching or something "of the devil" when YOU can't even explain it yourself.

Ok, folks. YOU EXPLAIN IT. ANSWER THESE TWO QUESTIONS:

1. Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him"...so who/what is it? WHO IS THE RESTRAINER? Paul obviously just told us in that passage because he says, "NOW YOU KNOW".

2. The point of the passage was, "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him" and then it supposedly says absolutely nothing about it.
Explain that.

And don't run away either...you guys have given me grief and at least three of you said it's of the devil, so stand up and explain it! The TRUTH will win here! My guess is that you can't explain it and that you don't know who the restrainer is because APOSTASIA does not mean falling away from the church in that passage.

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
Still waiting....

I believe that your problem is you are going to look at this three dimensional
as though it is based on physical location. The Holy Spirit is active
all through the "seven year period" or the three and a half year
period after the non existent rapture, or whatever you wish to call
it.

If you claim that the Holy Spirit is taken out, and that means the
rapture, this is complete foolishness because you have what other
pretribbers refer to as tribulational believers. So if the Holy Spirit
is restraining the anti-Christ, and "moves out of the way" to allow
the anti-Christ to come to power, this is perfectly consistent with
the post tribulational position. Jumping all around the bible looking
for verses to contradict won't change that fact. When you approach
scripture with that type of agenda you miss the obvious. I am not
saying that is what you will do. The point is, it is almost meaningless
because the Holy Spirit is spiritual and believed to be Omnipresent.
To claim He is not active in Christians lives after your rapture would
be folly.

In otherwords, to make any more of it being the Holy Spirit only
continues to weaken the position, because the Holy Spirit is working
in the lives of all Christians right up until the time of the 2nd Coming.

Michael

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Hint:

Paul said the restrainer will be "taken out of the way". That's a DEPARTURE!

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

So, what is the difference between that and this:

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (Day of the Lord) will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

They are both talking about the exact same thing!

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
You (and Ezek33, SuperKal, Covenant Heart, BigMouthNana) have two questions to answer. You are not going to sit back and tell me I'm spreading a false teaching or something "of the devil" when YOU can't even explain it yourself.

Ok, folks. YOU EXPLAIN IT. ANSWER THESE TWO QUESTIONS:

1. Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him"...so who/what is it? WHO IS THE RESTRAINER? Paul obviously just told us in that passage because he says, "NOW YOU KNOW".

2. The point of the passage was, "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him" and then it supposedly says absolutely nothing about it.
Explain that.

And don't run away either...you guys have given me grief and at least three of you said it's of the devil, so stand up and explain it! The TRUTH will win here! My guess is that you can't explain it and that you don't know who the restrainer is because APOSTASIA does not mean falling away from the church in that passage.

I read a very convincing argument about this by Steve Wohlberg, who suggested that the Restrainer was Rome, and that the antichrist would follow after Rome was removed.. which happened. If the restrainer was the Holy Spirit, then why didn't Paul just say so? Why the criptic remark?
Unlike talking to people face to face, who start shaking with rage when you confront their comfy belief system, the internet forums are just so much text, some comments do wind me up, but not many. I stear clear of non-christian forums, as i am not on the same planet as them. My point being that it's just text floating around on the either, and not personal, or shouldn't be.
The departure up there is the falling away from the truth, probably in the last days. Which is happening now. Or beginning to happen now, with Billy Graham coming right out with it, and the last two Popes.

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
I believe that your problem is you are going to look at this three dimensional
as though it is based on physical location. The Holy Spirit is active
all through the "seven year period" or the three and a half year
period after the non existent rapture, or whatever you wish to call
it.

If you claim that the Holy Spirit is taken out, and that means the
rapture, this is complete foolishness because you have what other
pretribbers refer to as tribulational believers. So if the Holy Spirit
is restraining the anti-Christ, and "moves out of the way" to allow
the anti-Christ to come to power, this is perfectly consistent with
the post tribulational position. Jumping all around the bible looking
for verses to contradict won't change that fact. When you approach
scripture with that type of agenda you miss the obvious. I am not
saying that is what you will do. The point is, it is almost meaningless
because the Holy Spirit is spiritual and believed to be Omnipresent.
To claim He is not active in Christians lives after your rapture would
be folly.

In otherwords, to make any more of it being the Holy Spirit only
continues to weaken the position, because the Holy Spirit is working
in the lives of all Christians right up until the time of the 2nd Coming.

Michael

Who said ANYTHING about the Holy Spirit? Paul doesn't mention the Holy Spirit in that passage AT ALL.

Hint:

Paul said the restrainer will be "taken out of the way". That's a DEPARTURE!

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

So, what is the difference between that and this:

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (Day of the Lord) will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

They are both talking about the exact same thing!

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

SO, who is the restrainer? Is APOSTASIA a departure of the church/gathering to Christ or not?

The TRUTH always wins.

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
And don't run away either...you guys have given me grief.

How can truth give you grief unless you are on the wrong side of it???

The truth is a two-edged sword. When you are secure in the truth,
it is foundational, nothing can shake it.

In fact, you are saddened by those who do not embrace it.

I am starting to go back to my original assertion, however. I think
the Lord may be working in your heart. If you pray sincerely to be
delivered from this deception of the pretrib rapture I believe that He
is faithful to do it.

I have witnessed in my years many men of God, behind the scenes
in lowly positions turn to post trib from pre trib. It is more difficult
when you are a famous pastor to change your theology and look
like you are vasilating in truth.

It is a fascinating thing to witness in the low trenches of evangelical
conservative fellowship. To see mature men of God change from
theologies they have held for more than twenty years. I believe
God is doing a movement, but it is often from the ground up rather
than from the top down.

I believe pretrib will still be here right up until the anti-Christ is
identified and begins to start killing Christians.

In Christ,
Michael

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
How can truth give you grief unless you are on the wrong side of it???

The truth is a two-edged sword. When you are secure in the truth,
it is foundational, nothing can shake it.

In fact, you are saddened by those who do not embrace it.

You are indeed running away from it because you cannot answer those two simple questions.

They are "giving me grief" means that they (including you) are harassing me, telling me I'm following the devil and believing/teaching a falsehood.

That is not true.

Answer the questions. I even gave you a very good hint.

Hint:

Paul said the restrainer will be "taken out of the way". That's a DEPARTURE!

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

So, what is the difference between that and this:

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (Day of the Lord) will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

They are both talking about the exact same thing!

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

SO, who is the restrainer? Is APOSTASIA a departure of the church/gathering to Christ or not?

The TRUTH always wins.

Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

Senior Veteran

Post Tribulationist

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

hiscosmicgoldfish2

Guest

Junior Member

Principled Iconoclast

hiscosmicgoldfish2

Guest

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

hiscosmicgoldfish2

Guest

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency