Pre, mid, or post?

[ezek33]

I am new here and I wanted to weigh the discernment of truth on this board before I get too engaged.

 

[ezek33]

I see I got some votes but no replies, This is better than the last place I put this poll up, it ended up with 20 voting pre, 3 mid, 3 post, and 8 other. To be honest I was appalled by the depth of deception being taught in our churches.

 

[Super Kal]

I am personally post-trib... I was pre-trib for all of my life, but when I finally let the Bible speak for itself in these past 8 months, God showed me how wrong I was

 

[ezek33]

I am personally post-trib... I was pre-trib for all of my life, but when I finally let the Bible speak for itself in these past 8 months, God showed me how wrong I was

Thank God for revealing His truth to His people.

 

[jodes87]

I generally say that I'm post-trib, but some people may refer to my view as mid-trib. I think that the rapture happens after the seals and trumpets, but before the bowls.

a couple of bible verses (not all of them though - there are more) to show why i believe that

1Thessalonians 4:16 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." NKJV

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 - "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." NKJV

 

[ezek33]

I generally say that I'm post-trib, but some people may refer to my view as mid-trib. I think that the rapture happens after the seals and trumpets, but before the bowls.

This view is neither mid or post trib, it is called pre wrath.

 

[gjpogiatzis]

Revelation 11 about the "Two Witnesses" reveals that the 144,000 Christians (the "real Jews" of Romans 2:28) who are witnessing "two and two" (Luke 10:1) in the great cities of the world (the Mystery Babylons) will be raptured into Heaven at the mid-point of the Tribulation after being resurrected, to show the whole world that Jesus rose from the dead and thereby give hope to the Church in the wilderness in Rev. 12, having "this great cloud of witnesses" (mentioned in Hebrews 11) before them (Hebrews 12:1).

The rapture of the survivors in the wilderness won't happen until pre-wrath, as seen in Rev. 7 (before the last seal is opened) & Rev. 19. Those without the mark of the beast won't be hurt by the bowls according to Rev. 16, just like the Jews weren't hurt by the plagues in Egypt in Exodus.

I believed in the Pre-Trib rapture until about 2 weeks ago (not having researched the matter too extensively before that time), but now I can easily refute every argument for it I've seen posted on all the websites.

 

[ezek33]

Revelation 11 about the "Two Witnesses" reveals that the 144,000 Christians (the "real Jews" of Romans 2:28) who are witnessing "two and two" (Luke 10:1) in the great cities of the world (the Mystery Babylons) will be raptured into Heaven at the mid-point of the Tribulation after being resurrected, to show the whole world that Jesus rose from the dead and thereby give hope to the Church in the wilderness in Rev. 12, having "this great cloud of witnesses" (mentioned in Hebrews 11) before them (Hebrews 12:1).

The rapture of the survivors in the wilderness won't happen until pre-wrath, as seen in Rev. 7 (before the last seal is opened) & Rev. 19. Those without the mark of the beast won't be hurt by the bowls according to Rev. 16, just like the Jews weren't hurt by the plagues in Egypt in Exodus.

I believed in the Pre-Trib rapture until about 2 weeks ago (not having researched the matter too extensively before that time), but now I can easily refute every argument for it I've seen posted on all the websites.

Well I am not so sure about your two witnesses theory but i am glad you have seen the truth on the timing of the rapture.

 

[jodes87]

This view is neither mid or post trib, it is called pre wrath.

why is it not post nor mid trib?? aren't the bowl judgements classed as tribulation? and if they aren't classed as tribulation, wouldn't then i be able to say that my view is post tribulation, because the tribulation according to that view would be the seals and trumpets?

yes, it may be a pre-wrath, but can it not also be called a post or mid tribulation view?

 

[ezek33]

why is it not post nor mid trib?? aren't the bowl judgements classed as tribulation? and if they aren't classed as tribulation, wouldn't then i be able to say that my view is post tribulation, because the tribulation according to that view would be the seals and trumpets?

yes, it may be a pre-wrath, but can it not also be called a post or mid tribulation view?

Well the only view that can be truly post trib is the belief that the rapture occurs simultaneously to the 2nd coming of Christ after the bowl judgments and all. Midtribber believe the rapture is right at the mid point of the trib 3.5 years in with 3.5 years left. Most people that believe as you do that the rapture is right before the bowls of wrath believe that the rapture occurs somewhere between 5.5 years and 6.9 years into the tribulation. So to be mid trib you believe it is half way through, to be post trib you must believe it is after the trib. The pre wrath theory is the theory that the rapture is near the end of the tribulation but before the bowls of wrath and therefore before the 2nd coming. From what you have described you would fit into the pre wrath theory.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Well the only view that can be truly post trib is the belief that the rapture occurs simultaneously to the 2nd coming of Christ after the bowl judgments and all. Midtribber believe the rapture is right at the mid point of the trib 3.5 years in with 3.5 years left. Most people that believe as you do that the rapture is right before the bowls of wrath believe that the rapture occurs somewhere between 5.5 years and 6.9 years into the tribulation. So to be mid trib you believe it is half way through, to be post trib you must believe it is after the trib. The pre wrath theory is the theory that the rapture is near the end of the tribulation but before the bowls of wrath and therefore before the 2nd coming. From what you have described you would fit into the pre wrath theory.

Use the scriptures to define "tribulation".

Jesus said in Matt 24:

1. Tribulation
2. Sun/moon darken
3. Wrath

Comparing that to Rev 6:

1. Tribulation (seals 1-4)
2. Sun/moon darken (seal #6)
3. Wrath (seal #7)

The "tribulation" is not the reign of the beast or the wrath of God and it most definitely is not just 7 years long.

 

[ezek33]

Use the scriptures to define "tribulation".

Jesus said in Matt 24:

1. Tribulation
2. Sun/moon darken
3. Wrath

Comparing that to Rev 6:

1. Tribulation (seals 1-4)
2. Sun/moon darken (seal #6)
3. Wrath (seal #7)

The "tribulation" is not the reign of the beast or the wrath of God and it most definitely is not just 7 years long.

How many times do you need to be told the same thing and by how many people I have been reading through some of the threads and many people have answered this question for you, like someone said before even if God came down and told you the truth you still would not believe it. Read Matthew 24, take a close look at verse 21.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

How many times do you need to be told the same thing and by how many people I have been reading through some of the threads and many people have answered this question for you, like someone said before even if God came down and told you the truth you still would not believe it. Read Matthew 24, take a close look at verse 21.

Mat 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Yes, so?

The abomination of desolation was this:

Luk 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

...
Luk 21:24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Confirmed by this:

Mat 23:35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.



Think about the question the disciples asked Jesus which he was answering, who he was talking to, and what has happened to them over the last nearly 2000 years.

Luk 21:6[As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass?


Jesus sent "my four dreadful judgments" on Jerusalem and the world.

Eze 14:21"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments--sword and famine and wild beasts and plague--to kill its men and their animals!


Sound familiar?

Rev 6:8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.



Mat 24:7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#comm/8

 

[Bible2]

The rapture will be after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). That's
why the marriage doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, after the
tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

Jesus can't come and gather together (rapture) the church until
sometime after there's an apostasy (falling away) in the church, and
the Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, cf. Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36).

When Jesus comes to gather together and marry the church he'll
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).

Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the reign of
the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13).

---

The church will have to go through the entire tribulation, including
the final part of it, the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16). But those
in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still
waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15, cf. 19:7-21),
won't be appointed to God's wrath, for no one who has obtained
salvation is appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Instead,
they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for
themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family
went into the ark which they had built for themselves on the earth
(Genesis 6:14, 7:1).

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I changed to post trib 5 years ago after being pre-trib for 35 years. All it took was the Lord revealing Matthew 24 one night. At first I was shocked, then I cried, received peace, and the next day I got mad for the deception that the enemy has dumped on the church, and the church sucked it up like it was the gospel truth..me included. Thank God for His mercy.

 

[Ghost air]

I am new here and I wanted to weigh the discernment of truth on this board before I get too engaged.

So evidently we have a standard of TRUTH right here... if this person is going to weigh the discernment of truth...

Another impossibility of being wrong I presume...?

 

[zeke37]

I generally say that I'm post-trib, but some people may refer to my view as mid-trib. I think that the rapture happens after the seals and trumpets, but before the bowls.

a couple of bible verses (not all of them though - there are more) to show why i believe that

1Thessalonians 4:16 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." NKJV

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 - "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." NKJV

Hi...your right on the money, post trib - pre wrath

This view is neither mid or post trib, it is called pre wrath.

post trib and pre wrath actually...

Revelation 11 about the "Two Witnesses" reveals that the 144,000 Christians (the "real Jews" of Romans 2:28)

only 12 000 are Jews and 12 000 are from Benjamin (Rev7)...the rest are from scattered Israel, who has migrated into other peoples and nations (the Christian nations)...us.

who are witnessing "two and two" (Luke 10:1)

back then sure...but in the tribulation these two individual witnesses (the Olive Trees) are feeding the true Chruch (Candlesticks), its OIL (truth)

unfortunately, only 2 of the 7 churches (Candlesticks) receive the truth. Smyrna and Philadelphia ...The others go apostate

in the great cities of the world (the Mystery Babylons)

Mystery Babylon is all cities and all places that are not under God's Spirit...even Jerusalem. Satan will have control of the world in many ways...all his areas of control, are Babylon (Confusion)

will be raptured into Heaven at the mid-point of the Tribulation after being resurrected, to show the whole world that Jesus rose from the dead and thereby give hope to the Church in the wilderness in Rev. 12, having "this great cloud of witnesses" (mentioned in Hebrews 11) before them (Hebrews 12:1).

huh? ok, not quite....bare with me. As I said, the Candlesticks are defined as churches in Rev1-3.
2 are ready to face the beast, 5 are not...
these 7 candlesticks are fed OIL by the 2 Olive Trees (the individual witnesses)...but only the two Candlesticks directly touching the Olive Trees, get any oil. See Zec4 for conformation of the two Olive Trees

the two individuals are going to be Killed...(IMO, Moses and Elijah Mal:4) right at the end of the tribulation, 3 days before Christ's arrival and the 7th trump.





The raptured, are Gathered to Christ, (in a cloud of witnesses-1Thes4, Heb11-12) after the entire tribulation of the antiChrist(Satan) is over, but there are two tribulations...

the first one of Satan (that God allows), and the second one poured on those that deserve it....and that 2nd one happens when Christ returns...which is post trib (Satan's trib), and in that same 11th chapter when the 7th trump sounds...

Chapters 12 and 13 are inset chapters to teach you..parenthetical chapters.

14 picks up with Christ back on earth on Mt Zion, with the election...and then the vials are poured through 15 and 16.

The rapture of the survivors in the wilderness won't happen until pre-wrath, as seen in Rev. 7 (before the last seal is opened) & Rev. 19. Those without the mark of the beast won't be hurt by the bowls according to Rev. 16, just like the Jews weren't hurt by the plagues in Egypt in Exodus.

the proof is in Luke 21...not a hair on your head is to be harmed...even when delivered up to he who is called death (Heb2) Satan.

Rev7 has two groups...on on earth to face the beast, and one already dead in the flesh and with Him, patiently waiting to come back to earth as promised 1Thes4:13-end.

I believed in the Pre-Trib rapture until about 2 weeks ago (not having researched the matter too extensively before that time), but now I can easily refute every argument for it I've seen posted on all the websites.

ya, that is rather easy, now that you have looked AFTER means AFTER....yet some really do look and still can't seem to get it. Some claim that it is hidden...

Concerning 1Thes4, when the dead Come with Christ, it's time for the resurrection of those dead in Christ, not a pre trib rapture.

why is it not post nor mid trib?? aren't the bowl judgements classed as tribulation? and if they aren't classed as tribulation, wouldn't then i be able to say that my view is post tribulation, because the tribulation according to that view would be the seals and trumpets?

yes, it may be a pre-wrath, but can it not also be called a post or mid tribulation view?

Yes, Post.

we agree that the gathering to Christ is not until the 7th trump.

Well the only view that can be truly post trib is the belief that the rapture occurs simultaneously to the 2nd coming of Christ after the bowl judgments and all.

not really...the vials of wrath are not the tribulation of antiChrist....and when they are poured, the elect is actually there with Christ...

Midtribber believe the rapture is right at the mid point of the trib 3.5 years in with 3.5 years left.

Yes some do, when Satan is just about to arrive...not that that is correct.

Hey, God loves us so much that He has shortened that time, from 7 years divided into 2 parts...to 5 months divided into 2 parts (Rev9)...

Most people that believe as you do that the rapture is right before the bowls of wrath believe that the rapture occurs somewhere between 5.5 years and 6.9 years into the tribulation.

huh? what's with the math? it happens after the tribulation...so if you think the trib is going to be 7 years, then it'd happen at the end of 7 years. I think it is only 5 months long total...real quick...so it is right at the end of that 5 month period...

So to be mid trib you believe it is half way through

just prior to antiChrist's arrival,

to be post trib you must believe it is after the trib.

Yes, after the trumps...before the vials

The pre wrath theory is the theory that the rapture is near the end of the tribulation but before the bowls of wrath and therefore before the 2nd coming.

you must mean AT the 2nd Coming...since Christ is here on earth with His Gathred election when those vials are being poured out. So Pre-wrath is before the wrath of God....those vials.

have fun here....lots a pre tribbers...and...partial preterists..

 

[Super Kal]

here's my only beef with seeing the trumpets as the wrath of God:

Revelation 6:14b (the 6th Seal)
...and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Revelation 16:20 (the 7th bowl)
And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found.


this places the 7th bowl at the end of the Great Tribulation, and different from God's Wrath, because if we read on in 6:16-17:
calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

how can the rapture be pre-wrath if the bowls are not the wrath of God?

 

[zeke37]

the seals are just info, not events.

 

[Super Kal]

if that were so, then why did Christ make the rapture so specifically after the great tribulation, which happens to fall on the 6th seal?...

this is more than info... especially the 6th seal... the 6th seal is an ENORMOUS event