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Pre-incarnate Existence?

Do we exist before conception?


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GoldenKingGaze

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Smiths Literal Translation starts off Jeremiah with:
1The words of Jeremiah son of Hillkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin: 2When the word of Jehovah was to him in the days of Josiah son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year to his reigning. 3And it will be in the days of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, even to the fulness of the eleventh year to Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, even to the captivity of Jerusalem in the fifth month.

4And the word of Jehovah will be to me, saying,

5Before I shall form thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou shalt go forth from the womb I consecrated thee; I gave thee a prophet to the nations.

Does this indicate Jeremiah existed before conception for God to know him?
 

David Lamb

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Smiths Literal Translation starts off Jeremiah with:
1The words of Jeremiah son of Hillkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin: 2When the word of Jehovah was to him in the days of Josiah son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year to his reigning. 3And it will be in the days of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, even to the fulness of the eleventh year to Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, even to the captivity of Jerusalem in the fifth month.

4And the word of Jehovah will be to me, saying,

5Before I shall form thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou shalt go forth from the womb I consecrated thee; I gave thee a prophet to the nations.

Does this indicate Jeremiah existed before conception for God to know him?
I would say that it doesn't mean Jeremiah existed before he was conceived, but that God, who knows all things, past, present and future, truly knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah existed. He knew all of us before we existed too, which fits with what is said to Christians at Ephesus:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:3-6 NKJV)
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I would say that it doesn't mean Jeremiah existed before he was conceived, but that God, who knows all things, past, present and future, truly knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah existed. He knew all of us before we existed too, which fits with what is said to Christians at Ephesus:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:3-6 NKJV)
Couldn't God have then said "Before you were conceived, I knew about you."
 
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David Lamb

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Couldn't God have then said "Before you were conceived, I knew about you."
He could have said that, if that had been what He had meant. I believe God's knowledge is so immense that He can indeed say, and mean, "Before you were conceived, I knew you."
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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He could have said that, if that had been what He had meant. I believe God's knowledge is so immense that He can indeed say, and mean, "Before you were conceived, I knew you."
Once again, the testimony of several people is that in death, in the light of life, they feel they are home, more than anywhere on Earth. They meet angels they find familiar, and recall a time before conception in the light. Not re-incarnation. And they sometimes recall a history of participating in creation and choosing where they will be born. This persuades me to believe in incarnation.
 
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David Lamb

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Once again, the testimony of several people is that in death, in the light of life, they feel they are home, more than anywhere on Earth. They meet angels they find familiar, and recall a time before conception in the light. Not re-incarnation. And they sometimes recall a history of participating in creation and choosing where they will be born. This persuades me to believe in incarnation.
I believe it is far better to rely on what God says in His word, where (as far as I am aware) we are not told that we had any existence before conception. As for us "participating in creation", the bible says:

“All things were made through Him (Jesus), and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:3 NKJV)

Nothing about pre-incarnate mankind participating in creation. How could that be, since Man was the final being God created?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I believe it is far better to rely on what God says in His word, where (as far as I am aware) we are not told that we had any existence before conception. As for us "participating in creation", the bible says:

“All things were made through Him (Jesus), and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:3 NKJV)

Nothing about pre-incarnate mankind participating in creation. How could that be, since Man was the final being God created?
Job 38:6-8 KJV
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

In creation the sons of God could ask for things.

NDE accounts and testimonies make me look at scripture again.
 
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David Lamb

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Job 38:6-8 KJV
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

In creation the sons of God could ask for things.

NDE accounts and testimonies make me look at scripture again.
Where does it say that the sons of God could ask for things? It just says that they shouted for joy. Who were those sons of God? I believe they were angels, and a quick look at six commentaries on Job 38:7 all say the same. They can't have been people, because when the "foundations of the earth were fastened" man had yet to be created.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Where does it say that the sons of God could ask for things? It just says that they shouted for joy. Who were those sons of God? I believe they were angels, and a quick look at six commentaries on Job 38:7 all say the same. They can't have been people, because when the "foundations of the earth were fastened" man had yet to be created.
Personally I think the morning stars refers to angels, because from that name we derive "Lucifer", "Light Bearer", from "Heylel", or "Shining One" who is called "Son of the Morning", or "Morning Star" as if to say he rises ahead of the sun which is like the Son here, to lead worship. According to Hebrews angels will never be called sons.
Hebrews 1:5, 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? KJV
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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In Genesis 1 there is a gap, and between the creation of Heaven and Life on Earth we don't know how much time passed. I don't believe Earth is God's first planet. Hebrews 11:3
 
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David Lamb

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In Genesis 1 there is a gap, and between the creation of Heaven and Life on Earth we don't know how much time passed. I don't believe Earth is God's first planet. Hebrews 11:3
Genesis 1 mentions no gap between the creation of Heaven and life on Earth. Genesis 1:1 says:L

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Ge 1:1 NKJV)

As for Hebrews 11:3, it doesn't say that God created other planets before earth. It simply says:

“By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.” (Heb 11:3 NKJV)
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Genesis 1 mentions no gap between the creation of Heaven and life on Earth. Genesis 1:1 says:L

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Ge 1:1 NKJV)

As for Hebrews 11:3, it doesn't say that God created other planets before earth. It simply says:

“By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.” (Heb 11:3 NKJV)
Gap creationism - Wikipedia

I am persuaded the the Universe is 13.79 billion years old. And life existed elsewhere before on Earth. So in Job, the sons of God, the heads, appear before God, but not Adam, Satan also appears with them.
 
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David Lamb

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Gap creationism - Wikipedia

I am persuaded the the Universe is 13.79 billion years old. And life existed elsewhere before on Earth. So in Job, the sons of God, the heads, appear before God, but not Adam, Satan also appears with them.
We are not told that the sons of God mentioned in Job are heads, nor that they lived on other planets.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Where does it say that the sons of God could ask for things? It just says that they shouted for joy. Who were those sons of God? I believe they were angels, and a quick look at six commentaries on Job 38:7 all say the same. They can't have been people, because when the "foundations of the earth were fastened" man had yet to be created.
The Bible is a summary and commentaries are never authoritative.

The bene Elohim according to Messianic Jews are a divine council. Not humans, but I beg to differ, Adam if he had not sinned would have been above or an extraordinary human. Mighty and wise as the representative of his race in the assembly.
 
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David Lamb

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The Bible is a summary and commentaries are never authoritative.
Yes, I agree. I refer to commentaries written by faithful men whose knowledge of the Scriptures is far greater than mine. But I agree it is the bible itself which is authoritative.

The bible itself does not say that In creation the sons of God could ask for things. That was the point I was making.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Yes, I agree. I refer to commentaries written by faithful men whose knowledge of the Scriptures is far greater than mine. But I agree it is the bible itself which is authoritative.

The bible itself does not say that In creation the sons of God could ask for things. That was the point I was making.
Jesus encourages us to ask for things.

The bene Elohim according to Messianic Jews are a divine council. Not humans, but I beg to differ, Adam if he had not sinned would have been above or an extraordinary human. Mighty and wise as the representative of his race in the assembly.
 
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David Lamb

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Jesus encourages us to ask for things.

The bene Elohim according to Messianic Jews are a divine council. Not humans, but I beg to differ, Adam if he had not sinned would have been above or an extraordinary human. Mighty and wise as the representative of his race in the assembly.
Yes, Jesus encourages us to ask for things. But you are talking about the sons of God in creation asking things. I don't agree that if Adam had not sinned he would have had a seat on some divine council. We are not told that in Scripture. There are so many things we are told, so let's concentrate on them, rather than speculating on things that aren't in the bible.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Yes, Jesus encourages us to ask for things. But you are talking about the sons of God in creation asking things. I don't agree that if Adam had not sinned he would have had a seat on some divine council. We are not told that in Scripture. There are so many things we are told, so let's concentrate on them, rather than speculating on things that aren't in the bible.
OK, you can do that if you want, but for me, scripture alone leads to errors and I think speculation, imagination, NDE accounts considered, discernment and I am willing to think what is not orthodox is true.
 
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David Lamb

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OK, you can do that if you want, but for me, scripture alone leads to errors and I think speculation, imagination, NDE accounts considered, discernment and I am willing to think what is not orthodox is true.
If we were to look at near death experiences in order to get to God's truth, I am sure God would have told us. He doesn't, and besides, from what I have seen, accounts of near death experiences seem to be varied and often contradictory.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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If we were to look at near death experiences in order to get to God's truth, I am sure God would have told us. He doesn't, and besides, from what I have seen, accounts of near death experiences seem to be varied and often contradictory.
I have seen this too. The term began with Dr Raymond Moody's Life After Life. The book is an easy read and shows the commonalities from a USA perspective. The accident, the tunnel to a light, the being of light who may identify as Jesus. And a life review, seeing one's whole life flash before ones eyes, and seeing and feeling the impact of your actions several places into others. With empathy.

The people also are asked, in thoughts that can be put to words, "Do you love me?" and "What have you done for your fellow man?"

They may be greeted by family who passed on before, young looking grandparents, and people who helped them get there. There is a point of no return as when venturing into a paradise, full of light, love and beauty. They feel it is one's real home. They want to stay but are compelled not to venture to the point of no return but are sent back to their ill bodies for perhaps to raise the young children they have. And then they are in pain, with a new perspective on life full of love.

Some see pets in Heaven. Some witness and give account of the hospital activities from a ceiling perspective, know nurses names and where they left things in draws... Or they see what is on the hospital roof. They can check later. One lady born blind, saw for the first time in her NDE.

NDE Accounts have become a genre and some are made up. So I look for certain things, like a face to face interview not read by a robot.

To verify an NDE I look for the above commonalities. For a changed life and Christian faith.

I also look for their revelation, or sight of God. One man I think was Peter Panagore, only saw God as a light coming through a cloth with holes in it. And only got some clever revelation of the secrets of the universe and on return became a kind of Hindu. He advocates the Kundalini awakening.

Some people see light beings, all such are somewhat off the truth. Some remember past lives and think there is re-incarnation, for others the opposite is confirmed. Many describe their guardian angels, as old friends. They recall a vast time spent as sons or daughters of God. Some have a faulty or incomplete revelation of God like Betty J Eadie who thought the Father was greater than Jesus.

Ian McCormack met Jesus and was filled with light and love the more he saw himself as unworthy. He described the being of light as being so bright that the whole universe derived it's energy from His face, which then he was allowed to see. He saw Jesus and Jesus then stepped aside and revealed the New Earth, a paradise. He also saw a river of life. Some see a river of life and the tree of life growing on it's banks.

Howard Storm responds to emails. He died as an atheist and saw his hospital room after he died but was led down a corridor by shadowy figures, who began to push him and delighted in tearing him apart. In a mess in a dark place he heard he was to pray, and tried and started to get there, they objected and that spurned him on. Then a light came down on him and picked him up, healed him and took him to the gates of Heaven, where he knew he was with Jesus and the angels. They showed him his whole life, and he was embarrassed. His questions on the universe were answered, he was loved, and was shown Heaven in it's richness but told he was not ready to enter. And he returned to his body. He became a Christian minister.

And a Hindu man, Santosh Acharjee had an NDE and was not able to enter Heaven, but observed the gates, there was only a narrow entry, but he also saw God and was told he needed to love his family. He had a revelation of God and returned a Christian.

I have never heard of anyone meeting another god. Not since 2002. I am sure some make up stories. And some come from Satan. One man saw him and he asked him to preach, reincarnation.

In the end, when we die, and have been there for says or even years, that will supersede what we now know. Then the knowledge and grace we have now will be attested and come to fruition, as worth a lot or but a little. The end result is salvation or it is not worth anything.

The rich man and Lazarus both learned the truth after they died, and the rich man would not otherwise listen, nor his brothers.

Some people have Hellish NDEs.

Most people remain asleep in their bodies, and I suppose they are buried that way. That is not a good fate. To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

NLT 2 Corinthians 5:1-10
1For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.a 4While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

6So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.
 
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