pre-flood genetics

[Wade Smith]

The documentary mentioned that mitachondrial DNA can only be traced back through the female line...it was a long time ago that I watched it...I don't remember for certain...

Ok. Mitochondrial DNA is only passed from mother to child, because the egg cell has mitochondria in it, but a sperm cell does not.

So I have my mother's mitochondrial DNA, and any children I ever were to beget would not have any of my parent's mitochondrial DNA, but only my wifes.

So you can theoretically trace mitochondrial DNA back through the women if you had a large enough sample.

Anyway, evolutionists consider Mitochondria as a "symbiotic" microscopic life form that became incorporated in the cells of other organisms, and then "evolved" to live inside those cells. Effectively, according to an evolutionist, mitochondria are not "human" organelles. They are a micro-organism that lives in a state of symbiosis inside the cells of other organisms.

I personally do not believe that to be the case, but I'm just trying to present a basic representation of what mitochondria is.

However...I conclude that would also mean that the DNA of the "Original" man would have to be the same as the DNA of the "Original" woman...and I doubt seriously...the scientific community really wants to go there...I mean...it would tend to promote that the Bible is actually true and Adam and Eve were actually real people...

It would be impossible to prove scientifically if Adam's mitochondrial DNA was the same as eves, since none of his mitochondrial DNA was passed on through pro-creation. If Eve was created with exactly the same mitochondrial DNA as Adam, then all mitochondrial DNA still comes from Adam indirectly.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Wade, I'm actually really interested in this topic, but that OP is just *too long*. Would love to read more of your posts, but they're so so long and it's sort of "intimidating". Could you maybe shorten them a little somehow? It'd be awesome if so Would like to read about this topic, but the length of the OP is genuinely prohibitive

 

[Angel4Truth]

The university of California at Berkely some years ago found that indeed all originated from one woman because of a study they did on mitochondrial dna. They agreed all life came from one donor but refuse to acknowledge it means one original couple (they would rather believe monkies even though there is no evidence of that either in the study)

 

[Wade Smith]

Wade, I'm actually really interested in this topic, but that OP is just *too long*. Would love to read more of your posts, but they're so so long and it's sort of "intimidating". Could you maybe shorten them a little somehow? It'd be awesome if so Would like to read about this topic, but the length of the OP is genuinely prohibitive

I'm sorry.

I guess that was a bit much. I tend to be incredibly tedious.

Would it help if I simply broke the other post down?

I was trying to make an exhaustive post, and maybe all I ended up making exhausting one instead...

 

[Secundulus]

The university of California at Berkely some years ago found that indeed all originated from one woman because of a study they did on mitochondrial dna. They agreed all life came from one donor but refuse to acknowledge it means one original couple (they would rather believe monkies even though there is no evidence of that either in the study)

There is also scientific evidence that sometime in the past 70,000 years there was a worldwide disaster that reduced human life on the entire planet below 2000 people. 2000 is of course only an estimate. The only thing certain, from a scientific point of view, is that something happened to nearly extinguish all human life.

But the biblical story of a similar event must of course be complete fantasy.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I'm sorry.

I guess that was a bit much. I tend to be incredibly tedious.

Would it help if I simply broke the other post down?

I was trying to make an exhaustive post, and maybe all I ended up making exhausting one instead...

It's not tedious I guess, yeah, "sound bites" type posting would be more suited? There's no need to fit everything into one single post. Threads'll meander and weave and develop naturally and everything will get said eventually

(And please don't say sorry This is an awesome topic )

 

[Wade Smith]

Eve must have had some unique genes that Adam did not have, else it would be a geneticists worst nightmare. It would be like a man marrying a female clone of himself wth no genetic difference other than 2 x chromosomes instead of xy.

That would be very strange indeed. There wouldn't be much room for genetic diversity at all, such as hair colors and skin colors, because the genes would be so similar from one generation to the next that there would rarely be such a split.

first 22 chromosome pairs would have 3 possible combinations(one appears as often as the other two combined),and then there would only be one version of the X chromosome, which would appear in every human being.

However, the X chromosome is actually far more diverse from man to man and woman to woman than the Y chromosome is from man to man.

On top of all of this, God cursed canaan, and there were other "family curses" which may or may not have intailed alterations of the genes.

We see in the story of Jacob that God apparantly altered the genetics of Laban's cattle miraculously, in such a way as to favor Jacob.


The evolutionists claim that there is less genetic diversity between any two human beings on earth than there is between two monkeys in the same family.

Well, the only thing I can think of to explain it is all the genocide and wars over the years committed by all mankind.


Marriage actually creates some genetic bottlenecks, as opposed to "open breeding" like animals do. A cow breeds with whichever bull jumps on her first, seriously.

So if you had 5 cows and 5 bulls in a pen, in their life time, there could be as many as 25 combinations of how they mate, meaning extremely diverse gene pool in their offspring.

But humans "normally" are not like that. Historically, even the immoral ones tend to stick to one mate.

If you had 5 women and 5 men, generally speaking, there is only 5 combinations of how they mate, though a few may commit adultery...

Therefore, the possible diversity of genes in their offspring is very low compared to animals. Over many, many generations this can add up to creating just as big a bottleneck as catasrophism.

The reason is because if mom and dad have 3 children, there is the possibility that "some" of their chromosomes do not get passed on to either child. Over time, this could lead to some versions of some chromosomes disappearing entirely from a given population, or indeed from all of humanity.

Ok, lets look only at "sex chromosomes".

If adam started with XY, and Eve Started two unique versions of the X, that is X'X". (Ex prime, Ex double prime)

There are actually nine possible permutations of these chromosomes, but only 4 of these pairs can occur in Adam and Eve's first generation of offspring.

compared to 16 possible combinations for most other chromosome pairs, assuming they were made as diverse as possible.


Then the possible sex chromosome combinations of their own offspring in the first generation are:

Males: YX' and YX"

Females: XX' and XX"

All the possible combinations in the second generation of offspring would be here:

YX' + XX' -> YX, YX', X'X, X'X'
YX' + XX" -> YX, YX", X'X, X'X"
YX" + XX' -> YX, YX', X"X, X"X'
YX" + XX" -> YX, YX", X"X, X"X"

notice, there is more than one way to get the same result, at least when looking at just one chromosome pair.

 

[Wade Smith]

There is also scientific evidence that sometime in the past 70,000 years there was a worldwide disaster that reduced human life on the entire planet below 2000 people. 2000 is of course only an estimate. The only thing certain, from a scientific point of view, is that something happened to nearly extinguish all human life.

But the biblical story of a similar event must of course be complete fantasy.

That is supposedly the Toba supervolcano eruption.

But I believe most "geologic" evidence for supervolcanoes is speculative or mis-interpreted at best.

Building up the absurd amount of magma and sulfer compounds that is claimed to have come from Toba seems impossible except as a miracle from God. The magma reservoir "should" have simply melted through the crust and flowed onto the ground...

Additionally, 70,000 - 75,000 years is just completely inconsistent with the Biblical account.


And yes, they call you crazy if you mention the Great Flood, but they expect you to believe in a supervolcanoe inspired ice age instead...

 

[Wade Smith]

However, it is possible that one or more of these combinations did not actually occur (50/50 chance for each child getting a particular version of the chromosome). But since the sex chromosomes are actually the least diverse, what is more likely is that all of these possibilities DID occur, but that in another Chromosome pair, some possibilities did not occur. So say, hair color or eye color over time may have become less diverse.


Lets see if I can represent that.

Ok, assuming Adam and Eve started out as diverse as possible, and lets add another chromosome pair to the experiement.

Adam = YXWZ
Eve = X'X"W'Z'

Well, this gets very complicated already, but all possible combinations of first generation offspring are:

Males: YX'WW', YX'WZ', YX'ZW', YX'ZZ', YX"WW', YX"WZ', YX"ZW', YX"ZZ',

Females: XX'WW', XX'WZ', XX'ZW', XX'ZZ', XX"WW', XX'WZ', XX'ZW', XX'ZZ'

Now, these represent POSSIBLE combinations, not "actual" combinations that happened. IN a real marriage,people have limited number of children,and just considering two chromosome pairs I have 16 combinations. As you can see, even if Josephus was correct and 56 children were begotten by Adam and Eve, then there is a possibility that several of their chromosomes were never even passed on at all.

Once you have that first generation, then the only thing that hinders diversity is murder/accidental death before reproduction, genocide, and catastrophism.

The following example is not entirely accurate, but is a pathetic attempt to explain the severity of the genetic bottleneck caused by the great flood, and indeed marriage itself.

Now, picture the great flood happens, and imagine that Noah's 3 sons, which the scripture seems to indicate were triplets,all born in the 500th year of Noah. Imagine that they were all THIS combination: YX'ZZ'

Then imagine what their wives might have been. Lets pick 3 at random from among the possible female combinations: XX'ZZ', XX'WZ',XX'WZ'.

Then in this example, we have permanently lost the one version of the "W" Chromosome: W'. This would remove 1/4 of all possible gene combinations for this chromosome pair alone.

In other words, we are then left with these possibilities for future humans, as of the flood.



Males: WZ', ZZ', WZ', ZZ'

Females: WZ', ZZ', WZ', ZZ'

If you extend this sort of thing up the entire set of 22 non-sex chromosomes, from 0% to 75% of the diversity of Each pair would have been lost in the scenario of 3 wives for Noahs 3 sons. For most pairs at least one "version" of the chromosome would have been lost.

For all we know, that could have been incremental in combinations that represented something as exotic as blue or green hair, or red or yellow eyes, or antibodies and other healing properties that our current DNA doesn't have.

Now, Kill a bunch of "ites" and "Ims" and "Ians" in Exodus through 2 Samuel, and you might get rid of everything except "Z" and minor mutations of it...

The sex chromosome pair ends up being the most important one in the human genome because it is least likely for a "version" of the X to be lost.

 

[Secundulus]

That is supposedly the Toba supervolcano eruption.

But I believe most "geologic" evidence for supervolcanoes is speculative or mis-interpreted at best.

Building up the absurd amount of magma and sulfer compounds that is claimed to have come from Toba seems impossible except as a miracle from God. The magma reservoir "should" have simply melted through the crust and flowed onto the ground...

Additionally, 70,000 - 75,000 years is just completely inconsistent with the Biblical account.


And yes, they call you crazy if you mention the Great Flood, but they expect you to believe in a supervolcanoe inspired ice age instead...

The Volcano theory is a theory. What I find interesting is that the scientific genetic evidence points to a specific point in time in the not so distant past where there was a near complete human extinction.

 

[Wade Smith]

There seems to be a certain biblical truth hidden in genetics.

The Father is greater than the son.

Adam is called the "son of God", though not "begotten".


But in general, each generation after Adam is inferior to Adam, just as Adam was inferior to God.

Today, the gene pool has gotten so generic that you scarcely notice the difference from one generation to the next.

However, it is alarming that today, people live an average of 77 years for a man with all our medicines and vaccines keeping them alive. The longest lived person in modern times was something like 130, which was also greatly helped by modern medicine.

Still, 130 today is comparable to Jacob's 147, and in the time of Jacob, they had nothing whatsoever that we would consider "medicine". Jacob was still healthy and walked on his own power at the age of 130...


Without medicines, antibiotics, and vaccines, the average modern life span might be as little as half as long as it currently is, maybe less.

 

[Simon_Templar]

There seems to be a certain biblical truth hidden in genetics.

The Father is greater than the son.

Adam is called the "son of God", though not "begotten".


But in general, each generation after Adam is inferior to Adam, just as Adam was inferior to God.

Today, the gene pool has gotten so generic that you scarcely notice the difference from one generation to the next.

However, it is alarming that today, people live an average of 77 years for a man with all our medicines and vaccines keeping them alive. The longest lived person in modern times was something like 130, which was also greatly helped by modern medicine.

Still, 130 today is comparable to Jacob's 147, and in the time of Jacob, they had nothing whatsoever that we would consider "medicine". Jacob was still healthy and walked on his own power at the age of 130...


Without medicines, antibiotics, and vaccines, the average modern life span might be as little as half as long as it currently is, maybe less.

If you read the deutero-canonical books of Esdras (one and two) you will find that Esdras has a series of conversations with the Arch-Angel Uriel. In these conversations Esdras is allowed to ask various questions.

In response to one of the questions the Angel Uriel tells Esdras that each generation of men is lesser than the generation that went before, and the men who lived in ages past were much greater than those alive in Esdras' day and those to come in the future would be lesser still.