Pre-Destination

[meredithraven]

I personally do not subscribe to the belief of predestination, but I am curious about the mindset of those who do, so I would love for some Lutherans, Presbyterians, or any others who believe in this to answer the two things I really don't understand about this idea.
1. If you are predestined to go to Heaven or Hell, and this decision has been made at your birth, then what motivation do you have to try and be a good person, other than the love of Jesus? If I knew I were going to Hell no matter how good of a person I was, I would probably sin a lot more, because I would know that no matter what I did, I would still go to Hell, and vice versa.
2. If people in different cultures are also predestined, then why do you go on missions to save them? Their fate is already determined whether they are saved or not, so what can you saving them do for them in terms of the afterlife?

Thanks!

 

[Albion]

I personally do not subscribe to the belief of predestination, but I am curious about the mindset of those who do, so I would love for some Lutherans, Presbyterians, or any others who believe in this to answer the two things I really don't understand about this idea.
1. If you are predestined to go to Heaven or Hell, and this decision has been made at your birth, then what motivation do you have to try and be a good person, other than the love of Jesus? If I knew I were going to Hell no matter how good of a person I was

DO you know for a fact that you are going to hell? Predestinarians do not say that this can be known. That should answer this question for you.

2. If people in different cultures are also predestined, then why do you go on missions to save them?

Because we are not predestined to the exclusion of the faith. It is faith that saves. When you are talking about being predestined to salvation, that's a kind of shorthand. What is really meant is that you are predestined to have the faith in Christ that saves. Obviously then, it is important to reach those everywhere who have been predestined to know Christ. But there's another reason. All that Jesus taught us about living morally and well, holds true regardless of whether one has been predestined to salvation or not.

 

[meredithraven]

So what you are saying is that predestination is the belief that it is predetermined whether you will be saved or not, and that is what will send you to Heaven or Hell, not that you are simply predestined to one?

 

[Albion]

So what you are saying is that predestination is the belief that it is predetermined whether you will be saved or not, and that is what will send you to Heaven or Hell, not that you are simply predestined to one?

I'll put it this way--

If we are predestined, it is to have faith in Christ or not. If we are predestined to faith--which everyone considers to be a gift from God, whether one believes in predestination or not--it is the faith that saves.

Receive it and you will be saved. Don't receive it and you will stand before God trusting in and dependent upon your own merits. Consider what your chances of salvation are, in that case.

 

[meredithraven]

I'll put it this way--

If we are predestined, it is to have faith in Christ or not. If we are predestined to faith--which everyone considers to be a gift from God, whether one believes in predestination or not--it is the faith that saves.

Receive it and you will be saved. Don't receive it and you will stand before God trusting in and dependent upon your own merits. Consider what your chances of salvation are, in that case.

I don't see how that is predestination then, if you can change the course of your destiny by having faith.

 

[Albion]

I don't see how that is predestination then, if you can change the course of your destiny by having faith.

Just a minute. I didn't say that you get to choose whether or not to have saving faith. I said that if God predestines you to have it, you will have it...and be saved.

 

[meredithraven]

So God chooses who has faith and who doesn't?

 

[Albion]

So God chooses who has faith and who doesn't?

Some predestinarians believe that God chooses every person who gets the grace that permits faith, and also makes a similar, individual decision on every person who is to be damned. But some predestinarians believe that while God chooses those who are to have faith, he does not make an individual decision in the case of the others. However, the end result is the same since, if you do not receive the grace to believe, you cannot turn to God on your own.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

1. If you are predestined to go to Heaven or Hell, and this decision has been made at your birth, then what motivation do you have to try and be a good person, other than the love of Jesus? If I knew I were going to Hell no matter how good of a person I was, I would probably sin a lot more, because I would know that no matter what I did, I would still go to Hell, and vice versa.

Albion is right, it is not a predestination of Heaven or Hell but of who will receive saving faith.

By your own understanding, is you motivation or ability to do good what sends you to heaven? Are you not then your own savior? Under predestination, who is the savior?

Predestination is not a lottery, that when you die you find out who gets the winning numbers. Those who have been chosen and given the gift of faith. Are a new creation and actually desire to do the will of God, some one who is not saved will not go on living a life of sin. Repentance is involves and placing faith in Christ. Hitler did not die and find out that he magically got the lotto numbers, even thought he cursed God and lived an unrepentant life.

2. If people in different cultures are also predestined, then why do you go on missions to save them? Their fate is already determined whether they are saved or not, so what can you saving them do for them in terms of the afterlife?

I get asked this allot like it should be really stumped, the answer is simple its because Jesus said too. Jesus said in the great commission:

" Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

God has not just predestined the individual he has predestined the means that that person comes to faith. The means god has ordained to use is the preaching of the gospel by the church.

For example when i came to faith. I believed because God had chosen to give me that faith from before creation. But not only that he had preordained how that would happened. In his providence he predestined that i would go to the camp i did and hear the gospel and the people i would meet. He choose the means and way i would come to faith.

 

[meredithraven]

But I don't see how a fair and just God would not allow some people to know his glory...

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

A completely just God would save no one, and send everyone of us to hell. What we all really deserve is hell but God has shown us mercy, by sending Jesus to have his people from there sins. We as people seem to think God has not already shown us more mercy then we deserve. If you want true justice, God is just in fair to destroy us now. He is just and fair to show mercy on who he wants.

I have much the same problem with Arminianism, i could never believe in a demi-god that has no control over anything, who sits in heaven hoping someone might be his friend. It also makes man the god.

 

[elopez]

We weren't predestined at our birth but rather from eternity. Either way we don't know with certainity that we are predestined. In other words, you wouldn't know if you're going to Hell or not. Only God would know.

Sharing the gospel is still encouraged even if we believe in predestination. Again we don't know who is going to be saved, so we share the gospel in that mindset.

Really predestination doesn't make the concept of an infinte punishiment any worse than if we didn't adhere to it. An infinite punishment is an infinite punishment.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So God chooses who has faith and who doesn't?

God chooses who has faith, however our lack of faith is our own doing. God desires that all be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rebecca1918]

In my opinion. It is not predestined, but known from the beginning. God has knowledge of all the smallest outcomes of the world even before he created it. He knows whether a person will be born again in their lifetime the same way that he knew Eve would take the fruit. He does, however, have a plan for our lives should we choose to walk in faith... so I suppose I believe every person has two destinies to choose from, and God always knows which one we will choose, but gives us the choice anyway, because he would rather us love him than be obligated to him

 

[dollarsbill]

Proverbs 16:33 (NASB)
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

 

[PastorTeacher]

Mrs. Raven,
I do not believe in Predestination as far as heaven or hell, faith or not faith, thus I understand the confusion that you might have. I feel compelled to offer you a flip-side of the coin if you will. The idea of predestination is foreign to the Word of God. I understand that the words "predestined" (Rom. 8:29) and "chosen" (John 15:16) is used in the Bible more than once. But when you look at other verses, such as;

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Exekiel 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Isaiah 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD [is] a God of judgment: blessed [are] all they that wait for him.

1 Tim. 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 16:8-9; And when he (Holy Spirit) is come, he will reprove the world (Everyone) of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


I do not understand where people get the idea of predestination as it pertains to salvation. The Word of God tells me differently.

 

[wordsoflife]

The idea of predestination is foreign to the Word of God.

No, this is incorrect. The Word of God clearly teaches predestination.

Ephesians 1:4-5
In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

 

[PastorTeacher]

No doubt about it. The Bible does in fact teach Predestination. Just not the predestination of salvation, but the predestination of mankind to fulfill their role in God's plan. But we seem to have differing opinions and I can live with that.

 

[Tangible]

Predestination is a doctrine of Gospel. It is precious comfort for those whom God is saving. God desires that all be saved, and in Jesus Christ has atoned for all sin for all time. Those who are saved will be those who have not rejected God's gift of saving faith.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Predestination is a doctrine of Gospel. It is precious comfort for those whom God is saving. God desires that all be saved, and in Jesus Christ has atoned for all sin for all time. Those who are saved will be those who have not rejected God's gift of saving faith.

Indeed, we are God's children, He is our Father. We are already His, but just as children can reject/defy their earthly parents. In the parable of the "Prodigal Son", we are predestined to have the very best (eternal life), only through our rejection of what we are predestined for, can we lose it. God in His perfection, loves us so much, that should we fall from His grace, then repent, we are welcomed back and do receive eternal life, as that is what we were predestined for from creation.