Praying with the Saints

[concretecamper]

your claim didn't prove that the Spirit tells dead saints to pray for us.

if they are members of His body, and we are members of His body, there is no difference between you praying for me or another member of His body, except their prayer is more efficacious becasue they are more righteous(see James)

 

[IWalkAlone]

if they are members of His body, and we are members of His body, there is no difference between you praying for me or another member of His body, except their prayer is more efficacious becasue the prayers of their righteousness(see James)

James was talking about people who are still alive in this world. There is no scripture proving the Spirit tells dead saints to pray for us.

 

[concretecamper]

There is no scripture proving the Spirit tells dead saints to pray for us.

I never claimed this

 

[IWalkAlone]

I never claimed this

The OP did.

 

[com7fy8]

Romans 8:26 says the Holy Spirit intercedes for us >

"with groanings which cannot be uttered."

To me, this means praying deeper than words can utter. And the good which God has for us is better than words can tell; so I see a point of praying deeper than words, but using words, too, though the meaning is deeper and better than any words alone can tell. And the Holy Spirit, then, is communicating with our Father . . . for us.

And . . . by the way . . . our Apostle Paul tells us to pray "for all the saints". This is in Ephesians 6:18.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Since this has devolved from what the OP was trying to get at and back to the usual ... "stuff". Bye

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Revelation 5 doesn't say the Spirit tells the saints to pray for us. It says the elders are holding the prayers of the saints but its not saying they are praying themselves.

That's what prayer is.

Psalm 141:2

Let my prayer be set before Thee as incense, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

your claim didn't prove that the Spirit tells dead saints to pray for us.

Why is it necessary that it be proven from Scripture?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Since this has devolved from what the OP was trying to get at and back to the usual ... "stuff". Bye

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I never claimed this

The OP has.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Eastern and Western liturgies (Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican) contain this prayer (or a paraphrase) prior to Communion;

It is truly good, right and salutary that we should at all times and in all places give thanks to you, holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting, who in the multitude of your saints did surround us with so great a cloud of witnesses that we, rejoicing in their fellowship, may run with patience the race that is set before us and, together with them, may receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify your glorious name, evermore praising you and saying…

Holy, holy, holy Lord, Lord God of power and might: Heaven and earth are full of Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.​

So even for Lutherans and Anglicans who would reject specific prayer to the saints, do acknowledge that they pray with the saints in heaven.

Great post!

One needs only to read Revelation. As Heaven worships, so should we.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Instead of praying to a saint as we are not to communicate with those who passed physically we know they are ministers for good perhaps God can help from them so it is best just to ask God to accept their prayers from us to minister to us

If you prayed Hail Mary prayer it is best to alter the prayer to ask God to let her pray for you to help

 

[prodromos]

Instead of praying to a saint as we are not to communicate with those who passed physically we know they are ministers for good perhaps God can help from them so it is best just to ask God to accept their prayers from us to minister to us

If you prayed Hail Mary prayer it is best to alter the prayer to ask God to let her pray for you to help

That is not our experience. Throughout the history of the Church God has greatly blessed those who have sought the intercessions of the Saints. If it was not in accordance with His will, God would not bless it abundantly as He does.

 

[mikeforjesus]

The bible says even if an angel preach to you any other gospel than what you have received let him be accursed. You are not supposed to communicate with them it could be demons communicating with you to make you less effective. If they were really of God they would be able to do signs to all not just some but the bible says even devil does signs and wonders not real miracles only God can do.

When the apostles said we saw someone cast our demons in your name and we forbade him as he does not follow us Jesus said not to forbid so I suppose God can use them to do signs people can do in name of Christ and yet lead people astray but I have no proof of any miracle of church if it is true a real miracle only God can do but even if it is it is because of Christ but does not mean the doctrine of person who teaches is true.

Or I suppose God can use them to do signs because they are believers in name of Christ because you are seeking healing in name of Christ and they pray for you as they were misled and genuinely sought to follow God but by calling them you are allowing demons to come to you to mislead you even though the miracle is from Christ because you sought healing from a believer who will pray for you.

You don’t need to talk to saints when angel appeared to Mary she was afraid the angel had to prove and she did not seek it so you should only ask for their prayers and if they are ministers for you they will prove it to give you a sign no one can deny for the bible says not to intrude into things you have not seen not holding fast to head.

 

[prodromos]

The bible says even if an angel preach to you any other gospel than what you have received let him be accursed. You are not supposed to communicate with them it could be demons communicating with you to make you less effective. If they were really of God they would be able to do signs to all not just some but the bible says even devil does signs and wonders not real miracles only God can do.

When the apostles said we saw someone cast our demons in your name and we forbade him as he does not follow us Jesus said not to forbid so I suppose God can use them to do signs people can do in name of Christ and yet lead people astray but I have no proof of any miracle of church if it is true a real miracle only God can do but even if it is it is because of Christ but does not mean the doctrine of person who teaches is true.

Or I suppose God can use them to do signs because they are believers in name of Christ because you are seeking healing in name of Christ and they pray for you as they were misled and genuinely sought to follow God but by calling them you are allowing demons to come to you to mislead you even though the miracle is from Christ because you sought healing from a believer who will pray for you.

You don’t need to talk to saints when angel appeared to Mary she was afraid the angel had to prove and she did not seek it so you should only ask for their prayers and if they are ministers for you they will prove it to give you a sign no one can deny for the bible says not to intrude into things you have not seen not holding fast to head.

Satan cannot raise the dead nor can he heal cancer nor restore severed limbs. These and many more miracles which cannot be counterfeited have occurred through the intercession of the Saints.

 

[mikeforjesus]

As I said to you it can be real as they seek help from a believer in name of Christ but one who communicated with you could be demon but do you have any documented proof any of that happened that one can’t deny. Lazarus had been dead 4 days all who knew him knew that they had seen his body rotted already I have not seen any miracle of a saint that I know they did which is of God that I can confirm. Some things also not only God can do now someone can be healed of many diseases through cell transplant I heard a paralysed man can get better if you take a cell from one nose. But to raise a dead man or to give new eyes or limbs in a moment to one who has none is from God

 

[mikeforjesus]

Also I never suggested that but such ideas are found in church as said by St Hippolytus of Rome who is great Church Father that teaches antichrist will even raise the dead or he said appear to I don’t remember which is impossible I can agree he might be able to appear to but it would be a false sign and wonder if satan takes form of people who passed but we know it is not genuine and real if it is not same body you see that died and rot before your eyes and then was raised

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Are the saints dead now that they no longer reside in Sheol? I'm just asking bc it seems like everyone has their own concept of the afterlife which colors their understanding of Scripture.

Also I never suggested that but such ideas are found in church as said by St Hippolytus of Rome who is great Church Father that teaches antichrist will even raise the dead or he said appear to I don’t remember which is impossible I can agree he might be able to appear to but it would be a false sign and wonder if satan takes form of people who passed but we know it is not genuine and real if it is not same body you see that died and rot before your eyes and then was raised

 

[mikeforjesus]

No saints are alive but they still passed physically and I believe God says not to communicate with anyone who passed physically as He says to talk to only Him in 10 commandments. It says you are not to make likeness of anything in heaven to bow down it and I believe it could apply also to talking to it to give anyone the place that only God is allowed to have if you think they are able to do something God won’t do for you alone without them but I believed it is forbidden to communicate with them though it could be just be seeking to worship them is forbidden to think by serving them they have power in themselves to give you things I thought you should not it could not be them communicating with you.

Paul talks about how some had been giving worship to angels which I thought does not necessarily mean worshipping them as another god or to think God wants to worship them and by doing so you can get things but to seek to put them in a position more than they have with God to grant special things that God alone is suppose to give saying intruding into those things one has not seen as it says not holding fast to head.

 

[prodromos]

No saints are alive but they still passed physically and I believe God says not to communicate with anyone who passed physically as He says to talk to only Him in 10 commandments. It says you are not to make likeness of anything in heaven to bow down it and I believe it could apply also to talking to it to give anyone the place that only God is allowed to have if you think they are able to do something God won’t do for you alone without them but I believed it is forbidden to communicate with them though it could be just be seeking to worship them is forbidden to think by serving them they have power in themselves to give you things I thought you should not it could not be them communicating with you.

Paul talks about how some had been giving worship to angels which I thought does not necessarily mean worshipping them as another god or to think God wants to worship them and by doing so you can get things but to seek to put them in a position more than they have with God to grant special things that God alone is suppose to give saying intruding into those things one has not seen as it says not holding fast to head.

You seem to equate prayer with worship when "pray" is simply another word for "ask". Asking the Saints for their intercession is not an act of worship.
You also appear to divide Christ's body. When we are joined to Christ's body on becoming Christians we have already passed from death to life. That does not get put on hold or reversed in any way when we pass away, we are still members of Christ's body whether our own flesh has stopped breathing or not. Christ's body, the Church, is one. Christ does not have a living body containing the living Christians and a dead body containing the dead Christians, He has one body in which all Christians are manifest. There is literally nothing separating the living Christians from the dead Christians as is evident from the 2000 year witness of the Church.
You also appear to have a wrong understanding of what necromancy is. Necromancy was the calling up of the spirits of the dead for the purpose of learning secret information. That is not what prayer to the Saints is.