Praying with Protestants

[Carrye]

Apparently not many becuase many of the posts I read contradict much of what I have learned about Catholicism. I mean (Catholics here) are you pretty much in agreement with what has been posted because I really didn't get any of that from hanging out in GT for the last year.

What seems contradictory, Ivan?

 

[Garuda]

What seems contradictory, Ivan?

First of all, certainly the ideas of what "There is no salvation outside of the Church". I am not sure that I can go into further detail into that, I think it best that I sort of stay back and see what other Catholics say about this. I do understand that the language used in that expression goes deeper than what it looks like on face value. I have read several people right that it means exactly what it says - not a member of the Roman (sorry this is how many protestants see it) Catholic church than sorry - can't be saved.

You can see why this is so disturbing. And if it isn't true some of us are sincerely looking for clarification. And really, I've done a lot of research on this but have hit a wall - I would rather ask real Catholics what they think at this point.

Here is another good example:

It is a little difficult to understand. I’ll try to explain it and I hope I don’t state anything that is not correct but as I understand it, as long as it is a valid baptism, done with water, in the name of the father, son, and spirit and as long as the intent of the pastor baptizing is to “do what the Church does”, baptize into the body of Christ, the baptism is valid even if it is seen as symbolic by the person who is being baptized. The sacrament is an objective one; it is incorporating one into the invisible body of Christ. Whether a pastor and a baptizeie sees this as a merely symbolic joining, they intend to be joined to the “church” (the mystical body of Christ” through their baptism. So for that reason it is valid. I hope I explained that corectly. I am open to correction from anyone if I am wrong.

OK, I have to admit that this flies in the face of what I have seen other Catholics write (whether they were correct or not remains to be seen) but I have read on several boards that this position is not right. So it is confusing, needless to say. I have not seen a straight answer like this before (been lurking for a good year plus now [albeit mostly in non-Catholic forums].) I have seen people write to the effect - "symbolic baptism is no baptism"

And, I am a seeker of the Truth so I just tell it like it is (in other words from what I have seen as my point of view, not actually my opinion or belief) and I really do not have a hidden agenda here (I am not a debater). I just want the Truth.

And don;t let my old distinctly atheistic moniker fool you

 

[Carrye]

All right, a challenge! Carrie rings her hands and gets down to business.

First of all, certainly the ideas of what "There is no salvation outside of the Church".

There is no salvation outside the Church. The problem comes in with what we mean by Church. Catholics believe that there is but one Church (just as there is one Body), and all who are baptized are baptized into that one Church.

CCC1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

Which leads us to the next question,

It is a little difficult to understand. I’ll try to explain it and I hope I don’t state anything that is not correct but as I understand it, as long as it is a valid baptism, done with water, in the name of the father, son, and spirit and as long as the intent of the pastor baptizing is to “do what the Church does”, baptize into the body of Christ, the baptism is valid even if it is seen as symbolic by the person who is being baptized. The sacrament is an objective one; it is incorporating one into the invisible body of Christ. Whether a pastor and a baptizeie sees this as a merely symbolic joining, they intend to be joined to the “church” (the mystical body of Christ” through their baptism.

A validly baptized person was baptized with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The priest, minister, or person who is baptizing must intend to baptize. So if I just poured some water over a person and said those words, the person would not be baptized. I must intend that by saying those words and doing those actions, that the result be baptism.

The understanding of whether baptism is symbolic or objective, I don't believe, has any bearing on the validity. Similarly, I may not understand that after consecration the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of the Lord, but that doesn't mean that it didn't take place. My understanding of something has no effect on its objective reality.

And, I am a seeker of the Truth so I just tell it like it is (in other words from what I have seen as my point of view, not actually my opinion or belief) and I really do not have a hidden agenda here (I am not a debater). I just want the Truth.

I appreciate that more than you know!