Praying to Saints

[Albion]

Showing off has nothing to do with God already knowing what we need before we ask. .

Of course not. So for whom do you suppose we ought not show off?

If it's not God, then it would be ____________.

(Hint: read verse 5 again, which you quoted above)

 

[W2L]

Of course not. So for whom do you suppose we ought not show off?

If it's not God, then it would be ____________.

You just said showing off has nothing to do with God already knowing what we need before we ask. Right? so im puzzled as to why you are asking me about showing off?

 

[dreadnought]

Sure. For example, in the rosary itself (the Lord's Prayer is recited on some of the beads).

But OTOH, the rosary is, by definition, a prayer to Mary, not God. And it is taught that there are spiritual benefits to be realized from her if the petitioner says the rosary enough.

I have a lot of respect for the role Mary played here on earth, but when I pray, it's the Lord I want to speak to.

 

[Albion]

so im puzzled as to why you are asking me about showing off?

You said it didnt make sense to you, so I thought I could walk you through the matter and have it make sense to you.

 

[W2L]

You said it didnt make sense to you, so I thought I could walk you through the matter and have it make sense to you.

You're still not making sense. Never mind i withdraw the question.

 

[Albion]

Thank you.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Do Catholics ever pray directly to the Lord?

I'm Eastern Orthodox and we also ask the saints for their prayers. Yes both Catholics and Orthodox (and Oriental Orthodox!) pray directly to God.

A typical part of our morning prayers would look something like this (this is very short and edited): an opening prayer to the Trinity, a prayer to our patron saint (for me, St. John Chrysostom) and our guardian angel.

In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Holy God. Holy Mighty. Holy Immortal Have mercy on us.(3)
Glory to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen
All Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, forgive our sins. Master, pardon our transgressions. Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities, for the glory of Your Name.
Lord, have mercy.(3)
Glory to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen
LORD'S PRAYER

Lord have mercy (3)

Saint <Patron, in my case St. John Chrysostom>, Holy Mother of God and all the saints, who have pleased God in Your lives; pray to Christ my Lord that I might live this day in peace love and humility.

O Angel of Christ, holy guardian and protector of my soul and body, forgive me of everything I have done to offend you every day, and protect me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. May I never offend God by my sin. Pray for me to the Lord, that He may make me worthy of the grace of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Most Blessed Theotokos, and of all the Saints. Amen.

 

[Jope]

The Catholic church is seriously involved in spiritual prostitution. This the great
hoar of the book of Revelation.
And they are trying to be sneaky in order to entrap people into idolatry.
I have seen prayer requests addressed to St Jude, St Joseph,Mary etc...
They also have patron saints. Some people bury a statute of St Joseph in their backyard
in order to sell their house.People

in many pagan religions use the very same catholic names to pray to their gods. That is
called Syncretism.If you are praying to the "saints,be it Shadrach Meshach and Abednego,St Jude,Mary the queen of
heaven ,little jesus of Prague
etc...you are praying to demons. And that leads to perdition.
"Come out of her my people"Revelation 18:4

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, it is not.

But again, read the whole verse, not just the two words vain and repetitions. The meaning of the word, as used there, is defined in the verse itself!

7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." (Matthew 6:7-8).

(a) Do not use vain repetitions.
(b) The heathen does this.
(c) For the heathen thinks they will be heard for their much speaking.

Obviously their many words are empty words because they are repeated over and over mindlessly. They think they will be heard if they say a lot of words over and over. It is vain repetition. I have seen taxi drivers (of a non-Christian religion) do this in public before. They are not having a meaningful talk with their creator. They are just blathering words over and over mindlessly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have a lot of respect for the role Mary played here on earth, but when I pray, it's the Lord I want to speak to.

Mary said, "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:47).

Mary needed a Savior just like everyone else.

 

[paul becke]

where In scripture are we told that we will acquire God's divine attributes?

we have biblical data of Jesus saying that God will give us the power to move mountains if we have faith in Him. where does He tell that we will have omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence?

Did I say scripture was the only source of knowledge of divine things? What do you think Jesus meant with his quotation : 'Know ye not that ye are gods?' Did I not also point you in the direction of NDEs, citing the words of scripture concerning old men dreaming dreams and young men having visions ?

The problem with your questions are that you didn't like the previous answers we gave, and this reference to the priest, Ahimelech, giving David and his men the holy bread. There is also evidence to suggest, however, as in the case of your question here, that you need the explanation of what is written down spoon-fed to you. Only for you to reject it as not mentioned within the canon of scripture - the canon not determined by a Protestant church, for all the merits some of them display, but by Catholic Fathers of the church in the early centuries, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Such authority as some of your churches have enjoyed were seemingly intended to be temporary - personally I do not doubt, for instance, the part played by the Holy Spirit in inspiring George Fox and early Quakers - and for the primary purpose of getting the Catholic church back in line in areas from which it had strayed. God does not repent of his choices', and He explicitly founded the Church under Peter's authority, promising it would prevail against whatever forces of evil would plague it.

Contrary to what some of us think, it was not because we are intrinsically closer to God and his love, but for his own purposes. Objectively, the latter might or might not be true. What is certain though is that, despite what I believe is a major imbalance caused by undue emphasis on the priestly nature (beyond generic) of the ministry, by reason of the priest's acting in 'persona Christi'.

Making so much of the mechanism whereby God is said to make Christ's most bloody sacrifice on Golgotha, on 33 AD, bloodlessly present, via the celebrant, imo, can only have exacerbated the matter. It's nice to see the celebrant acting in persona Christi as a teaching aid, but going beyond that in the way it has been, seems to me to have been at the expense of our total focus on Christ's sacrifice, rather than the priest's and our own customarily bloodless one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason you can theologize it till you are blue in the face an only son is commonly called a firstborn son. That's real life. I'm an only son and I was called "Our first and only" into adulthood. You will never convince me it's impossible to be called both. I think it silly to try

Can you be first in a race if you are the only one in the race?
No, because you are the only one who can win the race. There is no first, second, or last place for a person who is racing alone.

Can there be a first covenant if there is only one covenant?
No, because there would need to be a second covenant in order for there to be a first. If there was only one covenant, it would simply be the one and only covenant and not the first covenant in a series of covenants.

Can you say to others that your one and only wife (you are currently married to) is your first wife in passing conversation? No, because you would confuse people into thinking you had more than one wife. For example: Bob could say: "Yeah, Patty is my first wife." "We really had some good times." This would imply that Bob had more than one wife.

If you said to somebody: "Yeah, my first car I owned was a Ford Mustang" and yet if you still owned that car as your one and only car in your life and you still drove it, then it would be confusing to others for you to say that because people would assume you don't have that car anymore.

Definition of First:

Coming before all others in time or order; earliest; 1st.

Source:
first | Definition of first in English by Oxford Dictionaries

I won 1st place.
She was my 1st girl friend.
The first placed Bob lived was in Chicago.
The head of the baby came first out of the mother's womb.
The German shepherd barked first before the sheep dog.
Rick ate his desert first before eating his regular meal.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The first place Bob lived was in Chicago and then he died.
This would be extremely strange to say this because there is too much of a gap in providing information about Bob for it to sound normal.
The proper grammar for this sentence would be:
The first place Bob lived was in Chicago and then when he moved to another city, it was there that he had died.
If I wanted to say that Bob only lived in Chicago, the sentence would look like this:
Bob lived in Chicago all his life until he died.
If I were to say that Bob lived first in Chicago all his life until he died, it would be grammatically incorrect to say this. For the word "first" in relation to the word "lived" implies that he lived elsewhere.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Did I say scripture was the only source of knowledge of divine things? What do you think Jesus meant with his quotation : 'Know ye not that ye are gods?'

I told you He was referencing psalms 82.

Are you now conceding that you can't provide biblical data for your position since you want to bring up authorities beyond the scripture and can't give me an answer from scripture?

 

[BNR32FAN]

If I was to write:

Jason slept not until dawn.​

It does not necessarily follow that Jason "slept" after dawn. All the above statement tells us is that Jason didn't get any sleep last night. It does not say what happened at dawn.
Matt 1:25 is the same. It is probably the most concise and economical use of Greek to state that Jesus birth was NOT the result of a sexual union between Joseph and Mary. That is all the information the evangelist wished to convey.

If you said Jason slept not until after dawn that would indicate that he did sleep after dawn. That would also be a more accurate example.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

where In scripture are we told that we will acquire God's divine attributes?

we have biblical data of Jesus saying that God will give us the power to move mountains if we have faith in Him. where does He tell that we will have omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence?

2 Peter 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

St. Athanasius - On the Incarnation - God became man in order for man to become God

 

[dzheremi]

One thing I have observed from my time among Egyptians (and Assyrians/Syriacs, Maronites, and other Middle Eastern Christian people) is that they will very often refer to one another by familial terms, even though they are not literally genetically related. The older women in the parish are everyone's "aunt", and the older men are everyone's "uncle". Men around the same age are "brothers", and everyone of any age is "my beloved" (habibi) -- especially if they're asking you for some favor or trying to convince you of something.

It is also standard that the priest is "Abouna", literally "our father" (as in the patriarch/leader of the congregation; this is a different form of the noun than is used in the Lord's prayer, where we say "Abana" in Arabic: "Abana ilathy fi as-samawat..."), and in the Egyptian tradition the wife of the priest is "Tasoni". Tasoni is Coptic for sister. Tamav, the Coptic word for mother, is apparently reserved for abbesses, like the famous modern saint Tamav Irini (Mother Irene), abbess of the convent of Abu Seifein/St. Philopateer Mercurius in Old Cairo.

So it doesn't really surprise me that the Bible uses these sorts of terms and it has still not been the case until modern times that anyone believed that Jesus had brothers or sisters from St. Mary and St. Joseph. This is just how people in that part of the world talk, even until today. I never had so many brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and fathers and mothers (etc.) until I began meeting Middle Eastern Christians!

The fact remains that the belief that St. Mary's virginity was not kept intact after the birth of Christ our Lord is a modern belief not in line with the mind of the early Church on this matter, but instead born of the logical wanderings in the minds of those who cannot read the scriptures along with the same early Church, as we have seen in this thread.

To substantiate and correct this, let us read what our father St. John Chrysostom has to say on the matter (a saint in common in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, to the best of my recollection also with the Eastern and Western Catholics...so, no lightweight in any fashion):

"And took unto him Mary his wife." Do you see how continually the evangelist uses this word, not willing that that mystery should be disclosed as yet, and annihilating that evil suspicion?

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son." He has here used the word "till", not that you should suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform you that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, has he used the word, "till"? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, "The raven returned not till the earth was dried up." Genesis 8:7 And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture says, "From age until age You are," not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, "In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away," it does not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word "till," to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves you to make the inference. Thus, what it was necessary for you to learn of Him, this He Himself has said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for you to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord John 19:27 commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home?

How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, "For neither did His brethren believe in Him."
​

 

[thecolorsblend]

The Catholic church is seriously involved in spiritual prostitution.

What is "spiritual prostitution"?

This the great
hoar of the book of Revelation.

The great "hoar", huh?

And they are trying to be sneaky in order to entrap people into idolatry.

This is one thing that makes me believe you don't understand what idolatry is.

I have seen prayer requests addressed to St Jude, St Joseph,Mary etc...

I personally have asked Our Lady, St. Joseph, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Isidore and probably others to pray for me at various times.

I'm also familiar with the idea that a lot of Catholics will petition St. Christopher before driving somewhere, though I personally have never done that. And that's not out of opposition to the practice, you understand. Rather, it's mostly because it slips my mind when I drive.

in many pagan religions use the very same catholic names to pray to their gods.

???

 

[NeedyFollower]

Ah. So when Our Lord said that God is the God of the living, not the dead, He was just wrong or something?

No but like you , I am a disciple of Jesus Christ and your Lord and my Lord taught you and I both , that when we pray say " Our Father , who art in heaven " ...and Jesus also gave the parable of the unrighteous judge and the widow ( one of my favorites ) and Jesus said " Shall not GOD avenge His own elect who pray to HIM night and day ..I tell you , He shall avenge them speedily , however when I return I wonder if I will find faith on earth . ( He told this parable in that men should pray always and not faint ) As my and your apostle Paul told us ( unless you are Jewish ..I am not ..I am a gentile ) anyway , our apostle said that there is one God and one mediator between God and Man ..the man Jesus Christ . ( 1st Timothy 2:5 ) Now our apostle did say if any man think himself to be spiritual or prophetic , let him acknowledge that the things I write to you are commandments of the Lord ( 1st Corinthians 14:37 ) ..( Apparently there were lots of "armchair theologians " in Pauls day who doubted that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself chose and sent Paul as an apostle to the gentiles ...despite how much it cost him and how much he suffered to be our apostle ( everything ) so you understand why I put much stock in what our brother Paul wrote and understood to be true and the things he wrote to us ( the elect ) . There are also many in our day ( with lots of degrees in theology but no cost of following Christ Jesus , who also doubt Paul's apostleship ..I will take my chances with Paul for his writings and his life also agree with the life of Christ . That does not seem unreasonable to me .

 

[Eloy Craft]

Can you be first in a race if you are the only one in the race?
No, because you are the only one who can win the race. There is no first, second, or last place for a person who is racing alone.

Can there be a first covenant if there is only one covenant?
No, because there would need to be a second covenant in order for there to be a first. If there was only one covenant, it would simply be the one and only covenant and not the first covenant in a series of covenants.

Can you say to others that your one and only wife (you are currently married to) is your first wife in passing conversation? No, because you would confuse people into thinking you had more than one wife. For example: Bob could say: "Yeah, Patty is my first wife." "We really had some good times." This would imply that Bob had more than one wife.

If you said to somebody: "Yeah, my first car I owned was a Ford Mustang" and yet if you still owned that car as your one and only car in your life and you still drove it, then it would be confusing to others for you to say that because people would assume you don't have that car anymore.

Definition of First:

Coming before all others in time or order; earliest; 1st.

Source:
first | Definition of first in English by Oxford Dictionaries

I won 1st place.
She was my 1st girl friend.
The first placed Bob lived was in Chicago.
The head of the baby came first out of the mother's womb.
The German shepherd barked first before the sheep dog.
Rick ate his desert first before eating his regular meal.

Jesus as First of many is Him in relation to the work of the Holy Spirit and man as it pertains to Salvation. Not one reference to Him as the child of Mary. Except Son of Man. There is no quote from Mary saying Jesus is her first child. Since it's about the maternity of Mary none of your proofs apply.