Praying in Tongues

[Preachers12]

Brethren in Christ, God give you Peace.

I must admit, I’ve always been a skeptic when it comes to speaking/praying in tongues. But that changed last night.

You may recall me talking about a dear friend who is an Intercessor. She went to a healing mass last night at our Church where the priest is very charismatic (I did not go, but am relating what she described to me last night). After the Mass, he leads everyone in song-led, praying out loud, shout alleluia, wave your hands in the air, general worship. Then people form lines to the altar and spread out in front of it when they are there and the priest goes from one to another, laying his hands on them and praying over them. He often prays in tongues and people often fall down ("slain in the Spirit").

After everyone who wants to be prayed over has been prayed over, the congregation prays over the priest, then they have a general holding hands, out-loud, prayer session before they close. Including the Mass, this whole event takes nearly four hours.

My Intercessor friend is a very orthodox and humble Catholic whose participation in a previous healing Mass was limited. She didn’t shout as much as others, she never waved her hands in the air, she sang mostly to herself, didn’t fall down when prayed over and was skeptical about tongues. So imagine her surprise when, as the priest was on the altar beginning to pray over people, he called her out by name to come up and help him by starting on the other end of the altar and praying over people.

She told me that she was extremely embarrassed, as everyone in the Church looked around to see who the priest was talking too. But she rose to the occasion and, not really knowing what to do, went up to the altar and over to the opposite end of the priest. She said a quick prayer, asking the Holy Spirit to guide her and that anything she might do be done so as to give glory to God. Then, with a slight hesitation, she placed her hands over the first person in line and began to pray.

She said that the words just came to her. Then the words seemed to speed up. They sped up so fast that she suddenly realized that she was praying in tongues. She had to abandon herself in order to prevent her thoughts and skepticism from interfering with what she clearly recognized as something that God was doing through her. She let herself go and trusted in God. And the people she prayed over began to fall out one after the other, which wasn’t the ordinary. The priest even looked over once and gave a look of surprise as he saw three people she had just prayed over laying on the floor next to each other and a fourth that she was currently praying over begin to swoon.

I’m totally convinced now that tongues is a gift which God uses for His Church. May he forgive me my doubts, for my pride is my weakness.

I asked my dear friend if she knew what it was she was saying when she prayed in tongues. She didn’t. She said though that she had an incredible sense of peace and another feeling, almost a physical feeling, which she cannot yet figure how to describe. The best she could do was say "electric." She’s still trying to wrap her head around what happened, but it may be something more for the heart than the head. God bless her.

God Bless,
P12

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Amen!! My only hesitation is that in a public setting it is my feeling as per Sacred Scripture that if you are praying over someone in tongues that it be silent-- as Paul clearly says that with no interpreter there should be no tongues spoken.

I recently was at Adoration where I felt very called to pray over people in tongues and was praying with a young woman who has the gift of prophesy-- and it was so awesome to be praying and hear the words that God has for a person at the same time. She and I were both shocked at the peace that we both felt afterwards and really could "feel" the Holy SPirit just rushing through us.

I only recently began praying in tongues again after a long time of not doing it-- but I only do when I feel the call of the Holy SPirit and when I do I use lots of holy water and other sacramentals to assure that this is a spirit of God.

May you be inspired to live a life of power in faith as did the Apostle's and early disciples!! WE are given the faith to move mountains!! LEt's start moving them!!

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

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[ShannonMcCatholic]

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[princess_ballet]

Sorry, but I still don't buy it.

 

[ZooMom]

Hello, P12. I always love seeing your posts. Especially the way they start. I cannot think of a more joyful way to greet someone than to say, "God give you peace!"

I, too, am very leery of those who profess the gift of Tongues. Of course, I cannot deny their experiences as I am not in a position to judge their authenticity. I have never been in the presence of someone articulating this gift. I merely think that certain charismatic tendencies are exacerbated by emotionalism. I truly do not mean that in a harsh way. Some people are just more susceptible to it than others. And I also do not understand the benefit it confers upon the community of believers when someone speaks in an unknown tongue. I remain a very tolerant skeptic.


Peace be with you!

Sandy

 

[BroIgnatius]

Brethren in Christ, God give you Peace.

I must admit, I’ve always been a skeptic when it comes to speaking/praying in tongues. But that changed last night.

Tongues is the least of all gift according to St Paul. The Charism of Tongues is to be used to build-up the Church. If tongues is done privately, then it is not the Charism Gift that God talked about.

There is also some major doubts about so-called "private tongues". There is no real Biblical Evidence for this unless we approach interpretation of the Bible in the same flawed way as Protestants do.

Tongues is the most easliy counterfeiting phenomena in the world. Everyone and their cat speaks in tongues: Satanists, occultists, shamans, witch doctors. In fact, speaking in an unknown tongue is one of official symptoms of Demonic Possession according to the Official Rite of Exorcism.

Given all this, anyone who believes they speak in tongues needs to have those tongues tested to be sure they are from God. This CANNOT be determined unless the tongues are specifically tested. "Feeling" the tongues is of God is not enough.

The Charistmatic Renewal can be a good thing for the Church if, and only if, the people in the Renewal stop borrowing from flawed Pentecostal theology and instead remain solidly in Catholic theology, and if they remain close and obedient to the Church.

Here is a detailed essay that deals with this subject:
http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/qa/Answers/Faith_Spirituality/f0401300077.html

Also here is a excerpt from the Rule of St. Michael that details some of the Church's teaching on this subject and also suggests a list of possible Charismatic gifts:
http://www.saint-mike.org/library/rule/excerpts/spiritual_gifts.html

 

[Irenaeus]

I agree with Brother Ignatius.

Do not quench the Spirit, but test all things.

 

[Ampmonster]

i think it can happen. but you can tell some people are just getting carried away. its bound to happen, people get infatuated with all God's gifts. but if i knew P12's friend, and knew her to be shy like that, i'd know it was genuine. good story, Preachers12!

 

[Father Rick]

Below is a cut/paste of my post on a recent thread regarding this same issue

A couple of insights with this issue...

1. There are more Catholics who claim to speak in tongues than all the Pentecostal/Charismatic denominations put together. In fact the Charismatic movement among Protestants started with the Renewal Movement among Catholics.

2. There have been numerous scientific studies of the phenomenon of glossalalia (speaking in tongues) by both Christian and secular scientists and linguists. Most of the occurrances of glossalalia were determined to be an actual known language, albeit not known by the speaker... i.e., a Russian speaking English, an American speaking Swahili, etc. Those cases where the languages were not known by the linguists, all agreed that the utterances bear all the signs of being a true language (syntax, grammar, etc) and not just random babblings.

The following is a link to the website for the Diocese of Johanesburg, S. Africa
http://www.catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/charismatic.htm .There are probably 100 or so links there to both official Papal Statements as well as articles by a variety of Priests, Bishops, etc. from around the world on these subjects.


Below is a copy of a document prepared by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops:

Document prepared by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops Ad Hoc Committee for Catholic Charismatic Renewal on the 30th anniversary of the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church.

Foreword

As a part of the preparation for the Great Jubilee Year 2000, Pope John Paul II has asked the Church to focus on the role and charisms of the Holy Spirit. Our Ad Hoc Committee for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal felt it was appropriate to issue a statement of affirmation, support and encouragement to those who have experienced the release of gifts and charisms of the Holy Spirit -- known as baptism in the Holy Spirit (Act 1:4)

Specifically on the occasion of the thirtieth anniversary of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the United States, we desire to affirm the positive impact this move of the Spirit has had in the lives of millions of people and through them the life of the Church

Because we believe that God in His great love for His people continues to fulfill His promise to pour out His Spirit anew, we have entitled this statement: "Grace for a New Springtime". We are reminded of the words of Peter on Pentecost in reference to the vision he had of the future impact this anointing and empowerment by the Holy Spirit would have: "It was to you and your children that the promise was made and to all those still far off whom the Lord our God calls" (Acts 2:39).

Come, Holy Spirit, Come!

As We Prepare for the Third Millennium

On the occasion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal's thirtieth anniversary, as well as the one hundredth anniversary of Pope Leo XIII's encyclical on the Holy Spirit, Divinum IIIdud, we, the U.S. Bishops' Ad Hoc Committee on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, want to affirm again all those Catholics involved in this movement of the Holy Spirit in our day. We, likewise, "encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church." (A Pastoral Statement on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, 1984, NCCB/USCC)

As we prepare for the Third Millennium, as called for by Pope John II in his Apostolic Letter, Tertio Millennio Adveniente (As the Third Millennium Draws Near), we believe the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is particularly called and gifted by God to be with the Church as it prepares for the Great Jubilee and for the challenges it faces as we enter the new millennium.

In its thirty year's of existence, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has brought personal spiritual renewal to the lives of millions of priests, deacons, religious, and lay Catholics. It has called countless alienated Catholics to reconciliation with the Lord and with the Church. It has deepened a love for Jesus and the Church among young people as well as so many others, including the unchurched.

Thus, for us, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is one of the signs of hope our Holy Father is referring to as "present in the last part of this century" when he speaks of "a greater attention to the voice of the Spirit through the acceptance of charisms and the promotion of the laity." (Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 46)

We believe that "the renewed outpouring of the Spirit of Pentecost in our times" (cf. Called and Gifted for the Third Millennium, NCCB/USCC) is particularly present in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit

Catholic Charismatic Renewal

As early as 1969, we affirmed the good fruits of the Renewal. Our Holy Father and other Bishops' Conferences have testified to these abundant fruits. In 1984 we wrote:

"Insofar as the Renewal makes its own what is central to the enduring reality of the Gospel, it cannot be dismissed as peripheral to the life of the Church...It witnesses to elements of the Good News which are central, not optional: the covenant love of the Father, the Lordship of Jesus, the power of the Spirit, sacramental and community life, prayer, charisms, and the necessity of evangelization."

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is, as Pope John II said in 1979, "A sign of the Spirit's action (and) a very important component in the total renewal of the Church.


Impact of the Renewal on the Broader Church

The impact of the Charismatic Renewal on the broader Church has been significant. The Renewal has nourished the call of all to holiness as a gift from the Spirit and helped the Church come to a greater awareness and expectancy of the Holy Spirit and the charismatic gifts of the Spirit. The Charismatic Renewal has led the people of God in a revival of the ministry of healing, encouraging them -- laity and clergy alike -- to pray for the sick with faith and expectancy.

It has renewed the appreciation for the role of praise in individual and communal prayer and enriched the Church with many gifted musicians, music ministries, and songwriters. The Renewal has taught a commitment to the Pope, the Bishops, and to orthodox teaching. Vocations to the priesthood, diaconate, and religious life have been fostered. It has called forth the gifts of the laity who are today serving in a variety of ecclesial lay ministries; e.g., in the liturgy, religious education, and youth ministry, and ministries for the transformation of the world.

New Evanagelization

The Renewal is at its best when, from its internal prayerful reflection, it looks outward to the lives of the many, both churched and unchurched, who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. "Charismatic empowerment in community has supplied the Church in this country and throughout the world with a host of committed and effective evangelists bringing the gospel to persons and places otherwise without hope of hearing the good news." (Fanning the Flame, page 13)

The witness of lives lived under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and of fervent Catholics telling others about Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit have always been and continue to be a constitutive part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and a fruit of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is empowerment of individuals and of the Church for its mission in the world: the proclamation of the Lordship of Jesus Christ and of His power to transform society.

Mary

Authentic Marian devotion and imitation is a welcome and growing dimension of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the United States. Mary, Mother of the Church, who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit "when the fullness of time had come" (Gal. 4:4), will "lead the men and women of the new millenniuim toward the One who is 'the true light that enlightens every man' (Jn 1:19)."(Tertio, 59) It is thus with great anticipation that we find within the Renewal this joyful awareness of the relationship of Mary and the Holy Spirit.

Ecumenism

In this movement in history the Lord has also called us all to a deepened awareness of the brokenness of the Body of Christ. In 1995 the Holy Father issued his twelfth Encyclical, Ut Unum Sint (That All May Be One), in which he states clearly that the Catholic Church is committed "irrevocably to following the path of the ecumencial venture, thus heeding the Spirit of the Lord, who teaches people to interpret carefully the 'signs of the times'" (#3)

We believe that the Holy Spirit has been poured out in our day to bring about unity of the Body of Christ for which our Lord prayed (Jn 17:21). Thus, efforts in authentic ecumenism -- e.g., the Congresses of the Holy Spirit and World Evangelization held in New Orleans (1987), Indianapolis (1990), and Orlando (1995), are some of the great fruits of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. As we stated in 1984, "we see in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal an ecumenical force in which we rejoice."

Baptism in the Holy Spirit

In the Sacraments of Initiation we experience the action of the Triune God. As regards the Third Person of the Trinity, in Baptism we become temples of the Holy Spirit; in Eucharist we share in the Body and Blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit; in confirmation we are empowered with the gifts and charisms of the Spirit to be witnesses for Jesus Christ. In this statement, we want not only to affirm the good fruit of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal but also the grace which is at the heart of this Renewal, namely, baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the fuller release of the Holy Spirit, as some would prefer.

As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian's life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God's power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church's life; worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelization, prayer and spirtuality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested
in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.

Pastoral Encouragement

We encourage the whole Church to look into and embrace baptism in the Holy Spirit "as the power of personal and communal transformation with all the graces and charisms needed for the upbuilding of the Church and for our mission in the world." (Fanning the Flame, p. 27)

We want also to encourage those in the Renewal to continue to bring an awareness of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit to the Church; to foster balanced devotion to Mary; to teach and grow in the discernment of spiritual experiences, and to continue in faithful cooperation with the mission and the vision of the local Church in which they serve. By its shared life, the Renewal can be an example and fostering agent of small Christian communities in the Church. Through the Cross and the "embrace of the paschal mystery" (Called and Gifted for the Third Millennium, p. 24), the Renewal can deepen "life in the Spirit."

We encourage leaders in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal to work to bring the various streams of this Renewal into cooperative unity.

Finally, aware of various pastoral concerns and needs, we want to affirm the National Service Committee and the various ethnic national service committees that have emerged in recent years; diocesan liaisons and their Association of Diocesan Liaisons; the various networks of covenant communities, such as the Fraternity of Catholic Charismatic Communities and Fellowships; and others in providing leadership for the Renewal.

Conclusion

In 1975 Leon Joseph Cardinal Suenens convinced Pope Paul VI of the value of the Renewal for the Church and continued to offer it guidance through the early theological documents called the Malines Documents. Even as recently as five years ago he offered his wisdom to the Renewal at the 1992 National Catholic Charismatic Renewal Conference when, via videotape, he encouraged us to open ourselves fully to the power of God, stressing that today more than ever before the world needs the witness of people open to the Spirit.

It is the Holy Father's conviction and ours that we stand on the threshold of a "new springtime for Christianity."

In Tertio Millennio Adveniente, Pope John Paul II states that this "new springtime of Christian life will be revealed by the Great Jubilee if Christians are docile to the action of the Holy Spirit" (18), and he exhorts his "venerable brothers in the episcopate and the ecclesial communities entrusted" to us to open our "hearts to the promptings of the Holy Spirit" (#59).

Thus, in the spirit of Cardinal Suenens and our Holy Father John Paul II, we say again, with great thanksgiving and enthusiasm, that in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit we see God's outpouring of a new Pentecost. This is a blessing for the Church and for the world as we near the celebration of our Lord's 2000th birthday and the beginning of the Third Millennium of Christianity.

I hope these resources are helpful to those who may not be very familiar with this subject.

 

[Preachers12]

Hello, P12. I always love seeing your posts. Especially the way they start. I cannot think of a more joyful way to greet someone than to say, "God give you peace!"

I, too, am very leery of those who profess the gift of Tongues. Of course, I cannot deny their experiences as I am not in a position to judge their authenticity. I have never been in the presence of someone articulating this gift. I merely think that certain charismatic tendencies are exacerbated by emotionalism. I truly do not mean that in a harsh way. Some people are just more susceptible to it than others. And I also do not understand the benefit it confers upon the community of believers when someone speaks in an unknown tongue. I remain a very tolerant skeptic.


Peace be with you!

Sandy

Sandy, God give you Peace.

Bless you! And thank you (and others) so much for such kind words. My greeting comes from St. Francis of Assisi, through whom I discerned my calling to become a deacon. It is a wonderful way to greet people and I try to do it in life as well.

I must confess something here. I have witheld one piece of information about my intercessor friend because I do not want to draw attention to it. But perhaps it may help alleviate some doubts by those who at least have become familiar with me here over the last couple of years.

The intercessor is my wife.

I can absolutely assure anyone who reads this that there were probably not any people much more skeptical about the gift of tongues than my wife and I. I don't think that I can put into words her amazement at this whole thing.

If you believe that this was some emotional, mass hysteria thing - you are absolutely wrong.

In terms of discernment as to whether it came from God - it did. My wife had just received confession, Communion and was standing in front of the exposed host as she did this. I could go on about her prayerlife or her wearing sacramentals (hidden, of course) which protect her from Satan, but those who will not believe, well, it would be a waste of space here. Her spiritual guide (who was personally skeptical also!) has confirmed it as well.

Keep in mind, there is a difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. This was the latter. Though this occured in a public place, each prayer was said over an individual and was not being broadcast through speakers or otherwise said loud enough for anyone other than perhaps the people on each side of the person being prayed over to hear.

An interesting thing that I pointed out to her after this was reminding her of her dream from just the night before, where the Blessed Mother led her to an orange tree and they prayed together. In that dream, the Blessed Mother's prayers sped up so fast that they basically became tongues. This was exactly how she described it to me, without her even thinking about the dream. I guess we need to go back and re-examine that dream a bit more now.

Let us pray - Thank you, dear Mary, for your loving care of your children. Continue to feed us with the milk of grace which your Son has earned and entrusted to your care. Care for us as your own children, dear Mother, and pray for us. How we adore you! How much we desire to rest ourselves against you and listen as you teach us about the wonder of your Son! Teach us, Mother. Love us, Mother. Guide us, Mother. Protect us, Mother. Infuse us with grace, Mother. All that we may be made worthy of the promises of your dear Son, Jesus.

God Bless,
P12

 

[Irenaeus]

P12,

As much as I'd love to accept what you say, without question, could you please explain this,

Keep in mind, there is a difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. This was the latter.

Where is this in the Bible, or in Tradition? It seems both charisms can be united...in both cases you are speaking in tongues, as in, another language...either in prayer or just speaking in general. Why the difference?

(Hoping that we will all continue to focus on the giver rather than the gifts...)

 

[Preachers12]

P12,

As much as I'd love to accept what you say, without question, could you please explain this,

[/font]

Where is this in the Bible, or in Tradition? It seems both charisms can be united...in both cases you are speaking in tongues, as in, another language...either in prayer or just speaking in general. Why the difference?

(Hoping that we will all continue to focus on the giver rather than the gifts...)

Irenaeus, God give you Peace.

As you might well expect, given the recentness of this, I am still learning myself. I think I can give a decent explanation, but forgive me for, instead, referring you to this thread from CA: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=8705

I think that they say it better than I can for now. I am still struggling with the head, though my heart has been won.

How great is God and how beyond our understanding His works and His will!!! Forgive me Father for my pride.

God Bless,
P12

 

[Irenaeus]

P12,

The link does not work right now, but I will surely check it out later if it is down!

Thank you for the information. Let's pray that we are faithful to what the Holy Spirit reveals to us. Sometimes I fear that we are too afraid.

As long as the gifts were practiced "decently and in order" and the fruits are there, I personally don't see how it can't be from God.

 

[Preachers12]

P12,

The link does not work right now, but I will surely check it out later if it is down!

Thank you for the information. Let's pray that we are faithful to what the Holy Spirit reveals to us. Sometimes I fear that we are too afraid.

As long as the gifts were practiced "decently and in order" and the fruits are there, I personally don't see how it can't be from God.

Irenaeus, God give you Peace.

Sorry! It is in the Apologetics forum on Catholic Answers' site. The thread is entitled "Speaking in Tongues".

God Bless,
P12

 

[BroIgnatius]

In fact the Charismatic movement among Protestants started with the Renewal Movement among Catholics.

Father, this point is not accurate. There are some 8 Protestant Charismatic movements before the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was even a glint in anyone's eye. The Catholic Renewal began in 1967 at Duquesne University becoming the 9th Charismatic outbreak since the 17th century.

One of the reasons why so many Catholics are practicing the Charismatic experience so badly is because at the beginning of the Renewal there was few to no Catholic spiritual directors available to give advice about this experience. Thus the early Renewal looked to Pentecostals for their information. Plus some Pentecostal ministers converted to the Catholic Church and brought with them erroneous ideas of the Charismatic experince.

In any event, the First Protestant Charismatic movement started in 1648 with George Fox. The Protestant Charismatic Movement as we know it today had its start with the 4th charismatic outbreak with Rev Parham in 1899 and with the biggest outbreak of all in the 6th outbreak at Azusa in 1906.

The Charismatic outbreak that brought in many denominations besides Pentecostal was the 7th outbreak in Los Angeles in 1959.

The 8th Outbreak was in 1967 with the hippie "Jesus Movement".

The 9th and 10th outbreaks were Catholics at Duquesne in 1967 and at Notre Dame in 1968.

Without checking, but just off the top of my head. the 11th outbreak, I believe, was the silliest and most stupid versions of the Charismatic alleged experience, at Toronto in 1994. While this might be on the chart as a Charismatic Outbreak, the Toronto "blessing" is the most likely to be fake. In fact the parallels between the "Toronto blessing" and the occult practice of Kundalini is rather remarkable.

At any rate, Protestant did not get involved in the charismatic experience through the Catholic Renewal; it was the other way around.

 

[Father Rick]

Father, this point is not accurate. There are some 8 Protestant Charismatic movements before the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was even a glint in anyone's eye. The Catholic Renewal began in 1967 at Duquesne University becoming the 9th Charismatic outbreak since the 17th century.

I did not say there were not previous outbreaks of charismata... but rather the Charismatic movement.

Those movements prior to '67 were/are referred to by different names, i.e. "Holiness movement" or 'Pentecostal movement'.

You list 2 seperate movements in '67,one in the Catholic church and one outside of it. My research only lists one movement in the Catholic church that spread outside the Catholic church... then continued to spread inside the Catholic church in '68.

 

[BroIgnatius]

I did not say there were not previous outbreaks of charismata... but rather the Charismatic movement.

Those movements prior to '67 were/are referred to by different names, i.e. "Holiness movement" or 'Pentecostal movement'.

You list 2 seperate movements in '67,one in the Catholic church and one outside of it. My research only lists one movement in the Catholic church that spread outside the Catholic church... then continued to spread inside the Catholic church in '68.

Father, I suppose my use of the term "outbreak" is being mistaken as singular incidents of charismata. Indeed, some on that list of 12-13 or so were mere outbreaks.

The Charismatic Movement that was an actual "Worldwide Movement" and not just an outbreak was founded in 1906 at Azusa Street, Los Angeles. While the previous Charismatic outbreak in 1899 was bolstered in 1900 by Armenian Russian Orthodox Charismatics coming to Los Angeles to join the movement there after they were persecuted in Armenia, it was the Azusa Street outbreak in 1906 that actually began what became the "Worldwide Charismatic Movement". It was not long that the Movement spread to Europe (in 1908) and caused so many problems in Germany that it lead to the "Berlin Declaration of 1909.

Then it was in 1959 that the well establish Movement broke out of primarily Pentecostal circles and entered many other denominations

As for the movements in the 1960's, the Charismatic phenomena was called collectively the Charismatic Movement by nearly everyone at the time; I know, I was there. In fact, in the 1970s I protested against the Charismatics as a Baptist evangelist only later to join them in the early 1980s for a very short while.

As for the "other" movement in 1967, I was part of that Jesus Movement a few years after that and in fact was "saved" in a David Wilkerson Crusade in 1970. David was a well-established and famous evangelist and youth minister in the Charismatic Movement in the 1960's. I became a "non-charistmatic" member of that Jesus Movement that spread so strongly into college campuses as well as involved with Campus Crusade for Christ. It was the Jesus Movement, if I remember right, was one of the major movers to really established the Charismatic movement on Protestant and secular campuses

Store fronts popped up all over the place in large and small towns designed as youth centers. The primary evangelistic focus was to witness to Christ, bring the kids to Christ, and depending on the individual youth center, bring them to the Charismatic Movement.

The Catholics call this the Charismatic Renewal, the Pentecostals called it the Pentecostal Movement, others called it the Holiness Movement, and it was all called the Charismatic Movement collectively. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Sorry, but the Catholics did not even some close to being the progenitor of the Charismatic "Movement" as the "movement" began 60 years earlier. Catholics were but late-comers to this modern charismatic phenomena and the last in the bunch to go "Charismatic."

 

[Father Rick]

BroIgnatius...

I don't want to get too involved here, or we may go into debate, which I can't do here. I will try to just clarify, because I think we are differing here on 'labels' on groups and not so much on actual content.

The movements in/around the turn of the century (Azusa Street, etc. with Charles Parham and others) have always been known as the Pentecostal movement, not the Charismatic movement. It is to this movement that all the traditional Pentecostal denominations (Assemblies of God, Church of God, COGIC, Pentecostal Holiness, United Pentecostal, etc.) trace their roots. The name was derived the from emphasis on tongues, using the Day of Pentecost as the example.

The movements in the '60s were collectively referred to as the Charismatic movement. Many in the Pentecostal groups did not like (and some even rejected) this movement since it did not emphasize tongues, but rather the charismata as a group-- of which tongues was considered just one of many. Hence the name of this movement 'Charismatic'. While there is now much overlap between the Pentecostal and Charismatic camps, there is still Much difference as to style and self-definition.

The Jesus Movement you refer to (for the benefit of those who may not know) was an evangelistic movement that began among many hippies who came to Christ. Since many had never been in church of any kind they developed their own styles of music, etc. This very kind of evangelism and the development of new forms of music were commended by the National Conference of Bishops (see quote in previous post). David Wilkerson is actually considered a traditional Pentecostal (Assembly of God), although he was influential in some pockets of the Charismatic movement. That may explain why you are 'labelling' the 2 groups as one, since the particular place you were had overlaps of the two.

Anyway, hopefully that helps explain how I was labelling the various groups and why.







Going back to the intent of the original post:

While it was not until recently that these charisms were as widely known with the Catholic Church, one finds instances of them documented throughout Church history.

I'll leave you with one last quote, taken from the same letter by the National Conference of Bishops

it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.

 

[BroIgnatius]

BroIgnatius...

I don't want to get too involved here, or we may go into debate, which I can't do here. I will try to just clarify, because I think we are differing here on 'labels' on groups and not so much on actual content.

I do not see any debate, just historical facts.

I am fullly aware of the differences between the Pentecostal Movement and the Charismatic Movement. It is true that I am placing both movements under the one term of "Charismatic Movement," which is where I believe they belong.

As is described in the definitive volume, Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charistmatic Movements, the essential elements in the Charismatic Renewal are:

1) Focus on Jesus
2) Praise
3) Love of the Bible
4) God Speaks today
5) Evangelism
6) Awareness of Evil
7) Spiritual Gifts
8) Eschatological Expectation
9) Spiritual power.

This same volume, written by Pentecostal and Charistmatic experts, also explains: "A comparison of the Charismatic movement with the Pentecostal movement will indicate that these nine elements characterize both movements. The differences concern the framework, both ecclesiasitcal and theological, in which they occur, the social milieu being most penetrated."

Even if we are to use the word "charismatic" in it strictest and most narrow sense, the Catholic Chruch was not the progeniter. The Charisamatic Renewal, even in thes narrow definition of the phrase, began well before 1967.

It is true that the Catholic Renewal facilitated a wide-reaching advancement in the Charistmatic Movement, but the sources of the Movement, going back to the Pentecostal movement of the early 20th Century and the Charismatic Movement emerging in the early 1960's, do not begin with the Catholics -- and that is my only point.

By the way, as far as David Wilkerson is concerned, it is true he was a Pentecostal, but, again according to the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charistmatic Movements, page 885: "The beginning of the charismatic movement in many circles, both Roman Catholi and Protestant, was sparked by (David Wilkerson and his) The Cross and the Switchblade."