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I would not fuss too much over this as Paul makes it very clear within 1Cor 14 that he is speaking of tongues always being given through unintelligible utterances. The idea that Paul was speaking of known human languages essentially became a lame duck way back in the late 70's, where it is really only something that the old school hardcore-cesssationists try and pull from time to time, but their view has absolutely no support from within the Scriptures.
If you travel through 1Cor 14 you will see what may very well be Paul's main concern which is with the unintelligible use of tongues within the congregational meetings at Corinth where each tongue is not subsequently articulated/interpreted.
To save some time, if you check the brief excerpts from the following peer-reviewed commentaries this should help you to understand that tongues are always spoken as inarticulate non-human communications, where they are also always directed to the Father and never to man. Congregational prophecy which is always given in the local language is how the Holy Spirit speaks to a congregation or to an individual and this does not involve tongues.
The following commentaries are all well known and if you happen to be near a Christian University library then you will be able to view each book in greater depth if you wish.
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(Published 1958/85) Leon Morris, 1 Corinthians (Principle, Ridley College, Melbourne Australia)
p.167
The ability to speak in different kinds of tongues appears to have been a special form of speech when the person uttering the words did not know what they meant (unless he also had the gift of interpretation). Some have interpreted this from Acts 2, where ‘tongues’ seems to mean speaking in a foreign language. But it is difficult to see this here. Whereas in Acts 2 the characteristic is intelligibility (Acts 2:8-11), here the characteristic is unintelligibility (‘no-one understands him’, 14:2).
The gift here is not part of the church’s evangelistic programme[1] (as in Acts 2), but one exercised among believers. It is not understood by people who speak other languages, but requires a special gift of interpretation.
(1987) D.A. Carson, Showing the Spirit: A Theological exposition of 1 Corinthians 12 -14, p.52
It is not clear whether either Paul or his readers thought their gifts of tongues were the dialects of angels. A few interesting Jewish parallels make this possible, but Paul may be writing hyperbolically to draw as sharp a contrast as possible with love. I suppose a pedant might argue that they cannot be the tongues of angels, because in that case it would be silly for tongues to cease when perfection comes since that is precisely when we are more likely to encounter angels[2]! But I shall leave the question as to what language or languages we shall speak in the new heavens and on the new earth to those more gifted in speculation than I.
(1985) David Prior, The Message of 1 Corinthians,
p.240
In classical Greek there were three nuances in the verb to explain or interpret, to articulate or express clearly, to translate. Colin Brown has written: ‘It would seem that Paul is not thinking of interpretation in the sense of translating one language into another, which would presume that tongues had a coherent scheme of grammar, syntax and vocabulary. Rather, interpretation here seems to be more akin to discerning what he Spirit is saying through the one who is speaking in tongues16.
Page Footnote:
16. ‘…”This sort of interpretation is clearly not to be understood in the sense of “translation” . . . The fits of interpretation is that of rendering intelligible the preconceptual spiritual ecstasy[3] of the tongues-speaker.’
p.242
The rest of our expectation of this chapter is based on the understanding that this gift is available to us today and is being experienced constructively as such in many churches in different countries. For this reason the rendering of glossai as ‘tongues’ will be followed.
(1987) Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, (Exegetical Scholar - AoG)
p.630
…“tongues of angels” would reflect an understanding that the tongues-speaker was communicating in the dialect(s) of heaven. That the Corinthians at least, and probably Paul, thought of tongues as the language(s) of angels seems highly likely – for two reasons:…”
(1999) Marion L. Soards, 1 Corinthians, (Prof. NT Studies, Louisville Presbyterian Theo. College)
pp.281-82
…Paul offers a reflection on these two gifts that informs the readers that anyone who speaks in a tongue does not address people but God, and no human understands because the speaker utters mysteries with his spirit (lit. “but in spirit speaks mysteries”). According to Paul’s teaching, there is a clear point and a clear audience for tongues, but other humans are not the intended recipients of the message and so they do not comprehend the substance of the speech in tongues or benefit from it.
Additional Notes p.282
The Gk. Word glossa means tongue or “language,” but its use here refers to spiritual utterance. From Paul’s discussion of this phenomenon one finds that to speak in a tongue was a supernatural gift. It was not speech in an unstudied human language or dialect. . . Tongue speaking benefited the speaker as a direct spiritual communication to God (14:2, 16-17), but without interpretation it had no capacity for benefiting the congregation, even when spoken in the assembly (14:17, 27-28).
In setting the word spirit with a lower case “s” and in rendering the phrase “with his spirit” rather than “in the spirit,” the NIV interprets Paul’s use of the word (Gk. Pneuma) to refer to the spirit of the human speaker. This reading is possible, perhaps correct; yet, Paul’s ambiguous phrase in Gk. Contains the possibility that Paul meant to indicate that a tongue speaker spoke “in the Spirit of God,” so that the unintelligibility of the speaking was because of the divine origin of the language. A final decision for this question of translation is impossible and not crucial for grasping the basic sense of Paul’s statement.
(2000) Paul Barnet, 1 Corinthians, (Lect. At Macquarie Univ. Anglican Bishop)
pp.254-55p.243
Verses 2 and 4 help solve several riddles. One is to identify ‘the spiritual things’ of the previous verse. It is pretty clear (at least to me) that ‘the spiritual things’ of verse 1 are now defined as ‘tongues-speaking…speaking mysteries in the Spirit’ in verses 2 and 3, something Paul earlier called ‘tongues of men and of angels’ (see on 13:1), a heavenly dialect.
…Most likely such ‘speech’ was ecstatic, and believed to be the dialect of the angels in heaven.
(2003) David E. Garland, 1 Corinthians (Dean of George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University)
p.586p.611
Sixth, if one kind of tongue applies to the unspeakable groanings— sighs too deep for words—in which the Spirit intercedes in Rom. 8:26— 27 (Stendahl 1977: 111; cf. Macchia 1992), it offers new insights into Paul’s understanding of this phenomenon. Kasemann (1971: 134) contends that far from being a sign that the Christian community has been translated with Christ into heavenly existence (the view taken by the Corinthian enthusiasts), the apostle (Paul) hears in these things the groans of those who, though called to liberty, still lie tempted and dying and cry to be born again with the new creation.” Tongues, from this perspective, are a sign of weakness, not spiritual superiority. We do not know how to pray except with unspeakable groans, and the Spirit comes to our aid. As a token of our weakness, it explains why tongues will end (1 Cor. 13:8). Dunn (1988a: 493) thinks it unlikely that Paul has glossolalia in mind when he speaks of inarticulate groaning, but comments that if glossolalia was recognized as something undignifying, something beneath man’s self-respect as a rational being (cf. 1 Cor. 14:20),” then it would "be of a similar order to the wordless groaning,” expressing “human helplessness, ignorance, and inarticulateness."
The nature of speaking in tongues has been dealt with in the discussion of 12:8-10. The question arises here whether the “tongues of angels" are an expansion of human tongues or hyperbole. Petzer (1989: 239-40) thinks that the phrase’s emphatic position after the verb (“if in the tongues of humans I speak and of angels") means that “the tongues of angels" are not simply an extension of human tongues. The two are not linked. Petzer takes Paul to mean: even if speaking in human tongues “could be perfected to such an extent that it would be comparable to the angelic tongues. . . ." Petzer assumes that Paul exaggerates (Petzer’s term is “defamiliarizes") by putting glossolalia out of the reach of ordinary humans (see also Sigountos 1994: 252-53). These are tongues beyond any ever known by humans. The parallel with 13:2, “having prophecy and knowing all mysteries," suggests that the two items listed are distinct and that the last element is hyperbole.
I have presented evidence earlier, however, that speaking in the tongues of angels would not have been regarded as unattainable (see comments on 12:8-10). Pauls rapture into the third heaven, into paradise, where he heard things that a human may not speak, assumes that he heard things in some heavenly tongue (2 Cor. 12:1-4). It is more likely that he poses a realistic possibility that some may indeed believe that they speak in a celestial language (cf. the combination of humans and angels in 1 Cor. 4:9 [so Spicq 1965: 145; Conzelmann 1975: 221 n. 27]). In fact, to identify as hyperbole the second element in the next verses is misleading. Faith to move mountains does not refer literally to moving mountains but is an idiom for doing what is impossible. Giving one's body is also not an exaggeration, because many Christians had done so. The ascending scale in the dazzle factor of the gifts described is not correlated to their impossibility but to their potential to accrue greater glory for the individual.
(2010) Roy E. Ciampa/Brian S. Rosner, The First Letter to the Corinthians, (Both are Professors in NT Studies)
p.670
For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God. Witherington thinks that the fact that Paul says that those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God is “a clear indication that glossolalia was seen as a prayer language or as a way to talk to God, not as a human language. It does not indicate that it was not a human language, but that he did not expect that those gathered would normally know whatever was being spoken. It does suggest that speaking in tongues was understood as prayer, a view that is consistent with Paul’s other comments on the subject.
Do angels even have vocal cords or exist in a place where sound waves carry? Apart from their apparitions on earth?
So I am recently trying to return to the Lord and had been taught some on praying on tongues... anyone else do so frequntly do so and what has been ur experience with words of wisdom or knowledge u received as a result? I got one time I can't for the life of me remember what it was and I guess I should have written it down am trying to get another one
or it is just babble to make themselves look "spiritual".
It also tells us Satan appeared as a snake (who was once an angel), I don't know if it's appropriate to consider how they appear as their innate form.I think so, the bible tells us that two angels visited Lot in Sodom and it they clearly spoke and walked around like men. It is in the bible.
This is what the bible says;Here is a video of a lady in my church speaking in tongues...
As much as this is an interesting topic, where last night I decided that I needed to be more familiar with the alter of Heb 13 and with the Heavenly alter found in Revelations, I think it best to keep these discussions to another thread, though my only comprehensive commentary on Hebrews by Paul Ellingworth (1993) pgs.706-721 provided some really great insights. Thanks for the prompt!You seem to have departed from the point that angels are depicted using an altar in worship, and ancient Jews used one as well. You presume Christians stopped using altars on the basis that altars would be out of place in the new covenant, but Hebrews 13:10 suggests Christians took Communion from an altar. Your assertion that altars would be out of place in the new covenant, is based on the idea that using an altar signifies a sacrifice with is an alternative to Christ's sacrifice, but, as I think we've established, we're not talking about such an altar, for surely the angels are not offering an alternative sacrifice.
Furthermore, you still haven't addressed incense, which is clearly an appropriate way to glorify God. In Christ's person, heaven and earth are bridged, we are all invited to be residents of the Father's Mansion, and therefore it seems improper that heaven would have a peculiar method of worship that earth is not to participate in, especially since heaven's worship is described in terms that can be realized on earth.
This is
This is what the bible says;
1 Corinthians 14:27
5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,c unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
So was there an interpretation? If there was not, it is not biblical and out of order. That is a reflection on the Pastor really that he allows this.
Well then, someone in the congregation was not being obedient to the Holy Spirit. And as far as the Corinthians quote people often don't continue to read...
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Cor 13:49
It also tells us Satan appeared as a snake (who was once an angel), I don't know if it's appropriate to consider how they appear as their innate form.
Right, but context is important. Sure we do not forbid but it must be in order and followed by an interpretation. That is what the bible says as you read on.
While the bible says it must be interpreted as you say, one here says it cannot be interpreted because it cannot be understood...somebody is wrong....either the Bible or the somebody, or he is saying the bible contradicts itself, not sure which.
Anyway, I'd try to get an interpretation but the Gal in the video doesn't seem to be speaking any language I've ever heard....anyone else catch an accent or some tip off as to what language it is?
Rockytopva, do they ever have interpreters on hand? And thanks for submitting the video, knowing it would be scrutinized.
While the bible says it must be interpreted as you say, one here says it cannot be interpreted because it cannot be understood...somebody is wrong....either the Bible or the somebody, or he is saying the bible contradicts itself, not sure which.
Anyway, I'd try to get an interpretation but the Gal in the video doesn't seem to be speaking any language I've ever heard....anyone else catch an accent or some tip off as to what language it is?
Rockytopva, do they ever have interpreters on hand? And thanks for submitting the video, knowing it would be scrutinized.
Amen!Here is the real issue.
Tongues are described in the bible. We see it in ACTS, 1 Corinthians 13 and 1 Corinthians 14 in detail. It is a legit gift of the Holy Ghost.
Even though we should have no fear with trusting God to give good things to his children, otherwise we would never ask anything of God if we did not trust him; I can agree that there are certainly many practices and doctrines within the various Pentecostal and charismatic denominations that are just plain silly, just as there are within all denominations. I often refer to the hardcore form of cessationism as being a dead horse that was theologically laid to rest maybe 30 years back, but we Pentecostals and charismatics can easily behave as donkeys, but at least the donkey has a purpose and is a useful work 'horse'.Problem is that as many gifts satan counterfeits them and there is a lot of non biblical application going on primarily in the Pentecostal denominations. Now I know this will upset many Pentecostal brothers but it is true.
Even though we should (must never) encourage the practice of uninterpreted tongues within the congregational setting, unless of course people are speaking words of praise to the Father in the Spirit quietly to themselves during times of praise and worship; even when people do improperly speak out in tongues without a subsequent interpretation this is "still of the Spirit" as it is the Holy Spirit who is speaking through the individual and of course as per 1Cor 13:32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.I have seen Pastors and others speaking in tongues over the congregation without any interpretation at all. This is totally unbiblical and the Holy Spirit does not contradict the word. So the only conclusion you can come to is that they are not doing it under the Holy Spirit at all and are operating in another spirit or it is just babble to make themselves look "spiritual". In the latter case that is pride motivated and either case is a huge RED FLAG.
This is one of those grey areas where within any group dynamic there will always be a degree of coaching as this is a normal part of human interaction. Whenever a call is made to a group of people to come forward for prayer to either receive the Holy Spirit as a new initiate/candidate or even to a Believer to be enabled/released to pray in the Spirit (tongues), it is probably logistically impossible not to apply a degree of encouragement or prompting. If there was no encouragement or prompting the person who is instructing those in front of him would probably have to stare blankly at them and those who are there for prayer would also have to stare back at them; but there are certainly times when this prompting can go too far.I have also seen people coaching folks to speak in tongues, this is also unscriptural and opens the door to demonic influence. If someone has the gift it will be in order with scripture. They either pray quietly to themselves or there is ALWAYS an interpretation. If there is no interpretation it is either carnal or demonic.
I would never be concerned about such a thing being a possibility as the Father will always give good things to those who ask him. As for a Believer seeking to be able to pray in the Spirit there would never have been a situation where a demon has impersonated the Holy Spirit, it is simply impossible. If we were to apply this scenario to the call to salvation then we should be discouraging anyone from giving their heart to the Lord as they could receive a demonic spirit instead of the Holy Spirit.But this is what satan always does, he counterfeits real gifts to discredit them entirely.
If you want a good commentary on Hebrews, try Saint John Chrysostom: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2402.htmAs much as this is an interesting topic, where last night I decided that I needed to be more familiar with the alter of Heb 13 and with the Heavenly alter found in Revelations, I think it best to keep these discussions to another thread, though my only comprehensive commentary on Hebrews by Paul Ellingworth (1993) pgs.706-721 provided some really great insights. Thanks for the prompt!
They're also described as part animal, and with four faces and four wings. The point is that angels don't have a fixed physical form.Not sure what you are saying? I am not sure the spiritual meaning behind the serpent and the ability of angels to take human form are the same argument.
One; the devil is called a serpent in Genesis
Two; the devil is called a dragon in Revelation (seems someone is feeding him)
Three; the devil comes as an angel of light
Four; the devil came and tempted Jesus, it did not say he what form this was.
For angels
Angels appear as men to Lot and the people of Sodom
Angles appear in a whirlwind
Angel of the Lord appears to Joshua
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