Prayers to Mary in concerning Matthew

[ScottBot]

I'm not Catholic , and I don't "ask" non Biological people Living in this Realm people to pray for me, but I'm so getting tired of these threads.

So why participate if they annoy you?

 

[pgp_protector]

So why participate if they annoy you?

Simple.

I'm crazy*




*Note Not intended to offend people with mental impediments.

 

[leothelioness]

You make this statement like its doctrine,

It sounds like doctrine only to those who don't understand it, but to those that do it's just common sense.

which completely contradicts the traditional Apostolic view of the intercommunion between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant.

I have never seen any indication that the Apostles ever believed such. But if you want to believe they did go right ahead.

If the saints in heaven (the Church Triumphant) are completely oblivious to what is happening to the Church Militant, how would they know what to pray for?

Whoever said they prayed? The Bible mentions nothing of the kind (BTW, I know which verse you're going to use against me). I know it's impossible for one to think differently when this type of belief has been hammered into their heads since childhood.

 

[repentant]

In my orginial post I am in no way attacking the whole of the Catholic Church. I respect them quite well, so please no more acussations of that.

I speak to one point and that is the specific aspect of people praying to the Virgin Mary.

In response to the second responder of this thread, I can say this with great validity in research. The epistle of James and the epsitle of Jude, another way you can call someone named Judas, were written by James and Judas. They were half-brothers of Jesus, born to Mary.

In the Gospel of Matthew, it is mentioned she gave birth to Jesus, then sexually consumated the marriage to her husband, Joseph.

Not going to read this whole thing, so I don't know if it's been pointed out. James and Judas were not sons of Mary the Mother of the Lord..


Matthew 4:21
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them,

Matthew 27:56
Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

 

[leothelioness]

Not going to read this whole thing, so I don't know if it's been pointed out. James and Judas were not sons of Mary the Mother of the Lord..


Matthew 4:21
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them,

Matthew 27:56
Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

There was more than one James on the earth at that time. Obviously because there is another James that is called the brother of Jesus and the son of Zebedee was not called the brother of Jesus. It is clearly speaking of two different men with the same name.

And in the second verse it speaks of Mary the mother of James and Joses, Jesus's brothers, and the mother of James the son of Zebedee whose name is not mentioned and who is a completely separate person. It is confusing how it's written and without proper discernment can lead somone to believe that it is talking about only one woman. That being Mary.

 

[linssue55]

In the past I thought about something, that is that some say they pray to the Virgin Mary, sometimes I have heard her called Our Lady of Guadalupe, or the Lady of such-and-such place. With the doctrine on the Virgin Mary and praying to her I remembered two verses in the Gospel of Matthew that has caused concern. The following verses are as follows

"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25 NASB)


" He [Jesus] came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" (Matthew 13: 54-56 NASB).

By these two verses, we see that Mary had four sons, James, Joseph (Jr.), Simon and Judas and at least two daughters - this comes from the fact that the original Greek is plural - by her husband Joseph. I quoted from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) because it is the most literal translation for English available today.

Through the daughters and the some of Simon, Judas, and Joseph Jr., Mary and Joseph had the opportunity to have descendents. It is uncertain under James because the book of the Acts of the Apostles, a writing credited to Luke, says that he was killed by a sword. I do not know if he married and had children or descendents. The main point is that it is almost 2,000 years since Mary and Joseph had children and the significance is that is very probable for them to have living descendents today.

This leads to one concern for the doctrine to praying to Mary and petitioning her as some Catholic branches do. If she has living descendents, then it means that any who act according to the doctrine about the Virgin Mary, then it would literally be praying to their ancestor. Yet, the Bible clearly shows that the dead cannot hear petitions of prayer and the First Commandment is clear, "You shall have no other gods before me." The ramification for this command is that prayers and petitions can be only directed to the one God and no one else, whether it is angels or saintly men and women.

I did pray to Mary a few times, but then stopped because it was pointless to ask someone who could not hear them if I did them silently in the heart when God could hear them and only He could do anything about the prayers in the first place.

In the end, prayers to Mary or saints in pointless because they can not hear them and God wants us only to pray to Him directly.

We pray ONLY to the Godhead. Mary was just a good women, nothing more, and a sinner like me. "ALL have sinned." Proof is below.


matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

john 16:26
At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

acts 8:24
Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

luke 16:27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

john 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

1 Corinthians 11:13
Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

2 Corinthians 13:7
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates

genesis 20:17
So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.

deuteronomy 9:26
I prayed therefore unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed through thy greatness, which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

1 samuel 1:10
And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.

acts 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Psalm 39:12
Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

Psalm 54:2
Hear my prayer, O God; give ear to the words of my mouth.

Psalm 61:1
To the chief Musician upon Neginah, A Psalm of David. Hear my cry, O God; attend unto my prayer.

Psalm 64:1
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy

Psalm 69:13
But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation.

Psalm 86:6
Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.

Psalm 84:8
O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer: give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah.

daniel 9:17
Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

luke 6:12
And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

romans 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Even now my witness is in heaven; my advocate is on high. My intercessor is my friend as my eyes pour out tears to God; on behalf of a man he pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend. Job 16:19-21

 

[Oye11]

Thanks for that Linnsue. And I`ll add that in times of distress pray as Christ did in the Garden of Gethemane.

 

[repentant]

There was more than one James on the earth at that time. Obviously because there is another James that is called the brother of Jesus and the son of Zebedee was not called the brother of Jesus. It is clearly speaking of two different men with the same name.

And in the second verse it speaks of Mary the mother of James and Joses, Jesus's brothers, and the mother of James the son of Zebedee whose name is not mentioned and who is a completely separate person. It is confusing how it's written and without proper discernment can lead somone to believe that it is talking about only one woman. That being Mary.

Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

Here we see the Apostle James called the Lord's brother.

Matthew 4:21
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them,

Matthew 10:2
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

There is only one Apostle James, and he is the one called the Lord's brother, and he was the son of Zebedee...not the Virgin Mary.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

Here we see the Apostle James called the Lord's brother.

Matthew 4:21
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them,

Matthew 10:2
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

There is only one Apostle James, and he is the one called the Lord's brother, and he was the son of Zebedee...not the Virgin Mary.

The word "apostle" isn't always used to denote one of the 13.

 

[repentant]

The word "apostle" isn't always used to denote one of the 13.

Oh, ok. So that extra Biblical concept is what leads you to believe this. Please show me one instance in the Bible where someone ather than the original 12, Matthais or Paul is called an Apostle...

If you read the verses about the one where James the Apostle was called the Lord's brother by Paul, you wil see he is speaking of the original Apostles..

nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was...

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

 

[leothelioness]

Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

Here we see the Apostle James called the Lord's brother.

Matthew 4:21
Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them,

Matthew 10:2
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

There is only one Apostle James, and he is the one called the Lord's brother, and he was the son of Zebedee...not the Virgin Mary.

I see what you're saying here. James could have been called the brother of Jesus not in a literal way but in a spiritual way. We are all brethren of Jesus. But that still doesn't mean that Mary had no other children.

 

[Rion]

I must say, I find this thread fascinating, as I never knew the Catholics held such beliefs. I also find their reaction to someone honestly seeking an answer to this question very surprising, and disappointing.

"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25 NASB)

I really don't see how this could be read as anything else but consumation of the marriage, but it's never been a point to me.

And for those saying we're obsessed with it, I don't think I've ever heard any of the people at my church bring this up, and the OP was asking about it, since it's a huge deal to the RCC.

 

[leothelioness]

I really don't see how this could be read as anything else but consumation of the marriage, but it's never been a point to me.

Yeah, I don't either. I mean it is what it is. I guess when you've been taught all your life that your church is inerrant in it's teaching it's hard to contradict them even if you know the opposite to be true.

 

[Forest]

Oh, ok. So that extra Biblical concept is what leads you to believe this. Please show me one instance in the Bible where someone ather than the original 12, Matthais or Paul is called an Apostle...

If you read the verses about the one where James the Apostle was called the Lord's brother by Paul, you wil see he is speaking of the original Apostles..

nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was...

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phillipians 2:25;&version=9;

The Greek word apostolos usually translated as "apostle" is also translated as "messenger" in the KJV.

 

[repentant]

I see what you're saying here. James could have been called the brother of Jesus not in a literal way but in a spiritual way. We are all brethren of Jesus. But that still doesn't mean that Mary had no other children.

Well it means you can't say Mary had other children because the Bible said He had "brothers".

 

[Rion]

Well it means you can't say Mary had other children because the Bible said He had "brothers".

Yeah, but seeing how they had union together, it's more likely than not.

 

[repentant]

I must say, I find this thread fascinating, as I never knew the Catholics held such beliefs. I also find their reaction to someone honestly seeking an answer to this question very surprising, and disappointing.



I really don't see how this could be read as anything else but consumation of the marriage, but it's never been a point to me.

And for those saying we're obsessed with it, I don't think I've ever heard any of the people at my church bring this up, and the OP was asking about it, since it's a huge deal to the RCC.

Because the verse says in English.."until" which was translated from eos ou which does not really mean that after that time, she would have known a man in that way. Until is used in the Bible many times, to convey certain things, but does not mean that only until, something happens it will end. For instance Jesus said "I will be with you even until the end of ages".
Does that mean that after the end of ages, He will no longer be with us? It also says.."Sit thou on my right hand, Till (until) I make thine enemies thy footstool." Does this mean when Jesus' enemies are made His foot stool, He will no longer sit at the right hand of the Father?

It is really fascinating you did not know Catholics and Orthodox held this belief. And the reason why it is a huge deal is because it's speaks of Jesus, not really Mary..

 

[repentant]

Yeah, but seeing how they had union together, it's more likely than not.

And it says they had unions where?

 

[leothelioness]

Well it means you can't say Mary had other children because the Bible said He had "brothers".

It also means that you can't say Mary didn't have children simply because it does not mention them.

 

[repentant]

It also means that you can't say Mary didn't have children simply because it does not mention them.

I can say Mary was ever virgin because this is what was taught by the Apostles since the begining.