Prayer without Mary is like flying without wings?

[Iollain]

"Let us then," says St. Bernard (who went so far as to call Mary "the whole ground of his hope"), "seek for graces, and seek them through Mary." [De Aquaed.] Otherwise, says St. Antoninus, if we ask for graces without her intercession, we shall be making an effort to fly without wings, and we shall obtain nothing: "He who asks without her as his guide, attempts to fly without wings." [P. 4, tit. 15]

If this is so important to ask Mary to interceed in EVERYTHING, you would have thought that Jesus would have mentioned it once or twice. Jesus said more like:

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].



Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.
Jhn 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:


Hbr 4:14 ¶ Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.


Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.


Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.



Does not mention anything about asking Mary, if it is NEEDED then why is not it there?

 

[PaladinValer]

Jesus came "through" St. Mary, did He not?

Me thinks that is what St. Bernard is getting at.

 

[IamAdopted]

Jesus came "through" St. Mary, did He not?

Me thinks that is what St. Bernard is getting at.

Actually He came from God and this is what He was always preaching this. He always directs us to the Father and never to Mary,

 

[lionroar0]

Actually He came from God and this is what He was always preaching this. He always directs us to the Father and never to Mary

No He came from both woman and God.

And for the ONE HUNDREDTH MILLIONTH TIME

No has ever suggested that Jesus directs us to Mary. Mary is not God.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

The word "Incarnation" means to take on flesh.

Jesus is the incarnation of God. That is God in the flesh.

Jesus got his human nature from Mary and His divine nature from God.

This is the mystery of the incarnation.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Does not mention anything about asking Mary, if it is NEEDED then why is not it there?

Because devotions are not doctrines nor dogmas.


Peace

 

[mophed20]

The Acts of the Apostles is primarily a history book, not a Liturgical rubric. Nor is most of the NT. Just because the Theotokos is not mentioned, does not mean that she was not held in high esteem. She is remember, the mother of the King. The Jews (from which most of the early Christians drew their customs) would rightly call her Queen.

i didn't have the chance to read all of this forum so i don't know if someone else mentioned it. but i learned about it this way. much of the Bible is based from Jewish tradition, because most Christian converts were...Jewish! and so a lot of the Jewish traditions were put into Christian tradition as a result of that. they obviously wouldn't put post-modern traditions, or traditions from the renaissance, because those traditions were not a reality because we go by linear time. so going back to Mary: in Jewish tradition, when someone wanted to ask the King a favor, or for help or what-have-you, he or she would approach the queen mother. this is because typically, whatever the queen mother asked of the king, the king would follow through with, and so, it would be dumb to ask the king directly, because chances are, it would get turned down. and because this was the tradition of the day, it was assimilated into the Christian theology, because Mary bore Christ (both natures; that is why she is called Theotokos, or the mother of God). and that, as i have been told, is why Mary is esteemed so. it's a beautiful thing, when you really think about it.

p.s.-it is a human tendency to deify her, and it should not be blamed on the tradition, because the tradition is very intentional in making her not any sort of Deity.

 

[mophed20]

Oblio, i appreciate your patience very much. i have a question to ask you regarding prayer to mary. maybe more...

what must one's attitude be when approaching Mary? and what is the difference between prayer to Mary and prayer to Christ?

i am fairly new to the Orthodox faith (i come from a baptist background) and so (by all means!!) there is always room for learning. and if my questions are leaning too far one way or another, could you help correct me? thanks!

 

[Oblio]

The difference between the two is fundamentally the same as the difference between asking a friend to pray to God for you and praying directly to God.

That may sound trite, but if you think about it, and put it into practice, it will I think become clear.

 

[Iollain]

Jesus came "through" St. Mary, did He not?

Me thinks that is what St. Bernard is getting at.

Me thinks he is not saying that.

 

[Iollain]

Because devotions are not doctrines nor dogmas.


Peace

Well that is lovely but it does not change what the guy said, or that he is sainted.

 

[Debi1967]

Actually He came from God and this is what He was always preaching this. He always directs us to the Father and never to Mary,

Are you saying that He came from God the Father or was God...?

Then I ask you the same question that Oblio asked you, if you believe that Mary is Jesus's earthly Mother then you do not believe that she also carried God within her womb?????

 

[Debi1967]

Well that is lovely but it does not change what the guy said, or that he is sainted.

It means that although it may be lovely to hear for some Catholics it is not doctrine that he is advancing.... he is simply telling his thoughts. As to the fact of how he became Sainted it could be totally irrelavent to the fact of those words.

 

[IamAdopted]

Are you saying that He came from God the Father or was God...?

Then I ask you the same question that Oblio asked you, if you believe that Mary is Jesus's earthly Mother then you do not believe that she also carried God within her womb?????

and who do you say that Jesus is? For He came from the Father He died and rose from the dead and now is seated at the right hand side of the Father.

 

[Iollain]

Are you saying that He came from God the Father or was God...?

Then I ask you the same question that Oblio asked you, if you believe that Mary is Jesus's earthly Mother then you do not believe that she also carried God within her womb?????

I don't see anything simple about it, he is saying you must have Mary in on your every prayer, what is so simple about that?

All i hear is simply and clearly, when it is never simple or clear at all.

 

[Iollain]

"Let us then," says St. Bernard (who went so far as to call Mary "the whole ground of his hope"), "seek for graces, and seek them through Mary." [De Aquaed.] Otherwise, says St. Antoninus, if we ask for graces without her intercession, we shall be making an effort to fly without wings, and we shall obtain nothing: "He who asks without her as his guide, attempts to fly without wings." [P. 4, tit. 15]



....what is simple with that? You would think they would have noticed that bit of fluff

 

[Debi1967]

and who do you say that Jesus is? For He came from the Father He died and rose from the dead and now is seated at the right hand side of the Father.

you still have not answered the question at all

Are you saying that He came from God the Father or was God...?

Then I ask you the same question that Oblio asked you, if you believe that Mary is Jesus's earthly Mother then you do not believe that she also carried God within her womb?????

And Christ DID NOT come from the Father He was also existing as the Father and the Holy Spirit

The only thing that was begotten was his flesh

 

[Debi1967]

I don't see anything simple about it, he is saying you must have Mary in on your every prayer, what is so simple about that?

All i hear is simply and clearly, when it is never simple or clear at all.

I don't hear Oblio saying that at all ... I hear him saying what I am saying which is something opposite.

Do you know that you can be a Catholic and never once utter a Marian Prayer if you so desire? It is not required that you pray to Mary. In fact I know of some people that don't use intercessory prayers at all and are still Catholic.

What I think we are putting forth is that in Protestantism much of the Honor that should be given to Mary has been lost out of fear. I realize where that fear comes from. But honoring the Saints and their lives is not idolatry. Intercessory prayer is not idolatry when done in the correct fashion either.

However I do see where some could see the excesses made by some unfortunately that take it to extremes and get frightened by the prospect of it. These that take part in such behaviour need our fervent prayers that they will see the error of their ways and change. The Church, neither Catholic or Orthodox promotes nor teaches the use of idolatry in their teachings.

 

[Hentenza]

Do you know that you can be a Catholic and never once utter a Marian Prayer if you so desire? It is not required that you pray to Mary.

So, how do you do your priest dictated penance after confession of praying a certain number of Hail Marys? Do you ask the priest, can you assign me a different prayer?

 

[Debi1967]

So, how do you do your priest dictated penance after confession of praying a certain number of Hail Marys? Do you ask the priest, can you assign me a different prayer?

Never once when I have gone to confession have I been told to pray a certain number of Hail Mary's as my Penance.

I have always been given contemplative prayer. I have always been told to repent for the things that I have done and been counseled about them. That is the job of my priest to set my path straight using God.

It is a common misconception again that Hail Mary's are used as Penance......

I have question, what would be the use of saying a couple of Hail Mary's anyway? I mean we have to repent our wrongdoing to God, not Mary. I mean I guess you could ask Mary for intercession on your behalf in prayer to the Lord Himself but ultimately you have to repent to the Lord.