Prayer without Mary is like flying without wings?

[Iollain]

"Let us then," says St. Bernard (who went so far as to call Mary "the whole ground of his hope"), "seek for graces, and seek them through Mary." [De Aquaed.] Otherwise, says St. Antoninus, if we ask for graces without her intercession, we shall be making an effort to fly without wings, and we shall obtain nothing: "He who asks without her as his guide, attempts to fly without wings." [P. 4, tit. 15]

http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/blessed-sacrament.htm

I don't recall the Apostles or Jesus saying this?????????

 

[IamAdopted]

"Let us then," says St. Bernard (who went so far as to call Mary "the whole ground of his hope"), "seek for graces, and seek them through Mary." [De Aquaed.] Otherwise, says St. Antoninus, if we ask for graces without her intercession, we shall be making an effort to fly without wings, and we shall obtain nothing: "He who asks without her as his guide, attempts to fly without wings." [P. 4, tit. 15]

http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/blessed-sacrament.htm

I don't recall the Apostles or Jesus saying this?????????

UUHH I think not.

 

[Lisa0315]

No...

 

[PaladinValer]

I have no problem with that.

 

[IamAdopted]

Mary is not the wind beneath my wings. For we can go to our Father all by ourselves for we are a royal preisthood.

 

[Oblio]

I don't recall the Apostles or Jesus saying this?????????

Could that perhaps be because you were not there ?

Recall that the Dormition of the Theotokos occured after the last book of the NT was written. By definition, praxis concerning asking her for intercessions before her Son would not be in the NT.

 

[Lisa0315]

Could that perhaps be because you were not there ?

Recall that the Dormition of the Theotokos occured after the last book of the NT was written. By definition, praxis concerning asking her for intercessions before her Son would not be in the NT.

Why do you think there is no mention of Mary after the first couple of chapters of Acts?

Lisa

 

[Oblio]

Cause she wasn't on the tour bus with the rest of the Apostles

 

[Oblio]

The Acts of the Apostles is primarily a history book, not a Liturgical rubric. Nor is most of the NT. Just because the Theotokos is not mentioned, does not mean that she was not held in high esteem. She is remember, the mother of the King. The Jews (from which most of the early Christians drew their customs) would rightly call her Queen.

 

[Lisa0315]

The Acts of the Apostles is primarily a history book, not a Liturgical rubric. Nor is most of the NT. Just because the Theotokos is not mentioned, does not mean that she was not held in high esteem. She is remember, the mother of the King. The Jews (from which most of the early Christians drew their customs) would rightly call her Queen.

Is Apostolic succession based on Scripture, Tradition, or both?

Lisa

 

[christianmomof3]

Like a fish without a bicycle.

 

[Oblio]

Is Apostolic succession based on Scripture, Tradition, or both?

Lisa

Your question makes no sense to an Orthodox. Holy Scripture is not separate from Holy Tradition, it is part of it.

Understanding this, it is based on Holy Tradition, as is everything we believe

 

[Lisa0315]

Your question makes no sense to an Orthodox. Holy Scripture is not separate from Holy Tradition, it is part of it.

Understanding this, it is based on Holy Tradition, as is everything we believe

Ah, I see. Okay, then, when is the first recorded veneration of Mary in Orthodoxy?

Lisa

 

[Oblio]

I've seen in person relief icons in the catacombs under the church St. Paul preached to in Thessolaniki, I don't recall the date (or if they actually know when it was carved).

 

[Lisa0315]

I've seen in person relief icons in the catacombs under the church St. Paul preached to in Thessolaniki, I don't recall the date (or if they actually know when it was carved).

Okay. That is very helpful. What did the icons portray?

Lisa

 

[PaladinValer]

Mary is not the wind beneath my wings.

That wasn't the point of the quoted Saint by the OP.

Without the Blessed Ever-Virgin St. Mary, Christokos and Theotokos, Mother of Grace and Queen of Heaven, there would be no Jesus. Because she said "yes," an open invitation for Salvation was granted and born to all Creation.

For we can go to our Father all by ourselves for we are a royal preisthood.

I'm not a priest; I'm a hierarch. The word there is hiereus, not presbuteros.

Is Apostolic succession based on Scripture, Tradition, or both?

It was a doctrine established, based on Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, to prove Gnosticism is heresy.

 

[IamAdopted]

That wasn't the point of the quoted Saint by the OP.

Without the Blessed Ever-Virgin St. Mary, Christokos and Theotokos, Mother of Grace and Queen of Heaven, there would be no Jesus. Because she said "yes," an open invitation for Salvation was granted and born to all Creation.



I'm not a priest; I'm a hierarch. The word there is hiereus, not presbuteros.



It was a doctrine established, based on Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, to prove Gnosticism is heresy.

Mans opinion

 

[PaladinValer]

Man's opinion that St. Mary the Theotokos isn't the Mother of God?

Well, then if Jesus isn't God, then you're right: it is man's opinion.

Edit: Incidentally, I do believe Lisa is trying to make an honest effort to understand where Oblio (who I agree with) is coming from. Would it not be better, instead of simply offering short one-liners, that you might follow her example and learn why the other side believes as they do?

 

[Lisa0315]

Mans opinion

Tradition has its place. Even though Scripture was written within the first century, for the most part it was oral tradition that was the basis of the faith for several hundred years. Really, it was not until the printing presses that the regular person could own a copy of the Bible which was half way into the second thousand years of our faith.

Finally, please think of the first thousand years of the Jewish faith. They had nothing but oral tradition until Moses wrote it all down...

Lisa

 

[IamAdopted]

Tradition has its place. Even though Scripture was written within the first century, for the most part it was oral tradition that was the basis of the faith for several hundred years. Really, it was not until the printing presses that the regular person could own a copy of the Bible which was half way into the second thousand years of our faith.

Finally, please think of the first thousand years of the Jewish faith. They had nothing but oral tradition until Moses wrote it all down...

Lisa

Tradtion that does not lean on scripture is just that. Tradition. Scripture is truth. Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus.