Prayer Shawl question

[Rachel Rachel]

My grandson is going to attend the Passover Seder with my daughter and me this year and he's expressed some interest in a prayer shawl but he's worried about proper use of it.
I've noticed that the men at the congregation we attend seem to have a little ritual when they put it on where they kiss the corners of it. However, I looked up a video on youtube and the man giving a demonstration didn't do this.

Anyway, do you all think it's okay for my grandson to wear a prayer shawl to the seder, and does he need special instruction before wearing it?

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Also, looking online, I saw something called a "new covenant prayer shawl" that has the Messianic symbol on it. What do you think about that? Does the shawl need to be pure wool?

 

[ContraMundum]

Personally, I have no idea why people want to wear prayer shawls at Pesach seders- the Jews don't do it because the Seder is held after dark.

Maybe Messianics do, but that begs the question- why? And why go against established tradition based on centuries of careful Torah study?

It's not my place to say what to do in anyone else's congregation, but I would simply ask your son to conform to the custom of the people hosting the Seder.

 

[ChavaK]

Personally, I have no idea why people want to wear prayer shawls at Pesach seders- the Jews don't do it because the Seder is held after dark.

Maybe Messianics do, but that begs the question- why? And why go against established tradition based on centuries of careful Torah study?

It's not my place to say what to do in anyone else's congregation, but I would simply ask your son to conform to the custom of the people hosting the Seder.

I don't understand why they would wear one to a seder either. But it's probably a good idea to do what you suggest-ask what the people hosting the seder are going to be doing.

 

[MessianicMommy]

Yeah, I've not really seen one worn at a seder.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Okay, if it isn't the correct tradition, I'll tell him that.

 

[mishkan]

Okay, if it isn't the correct tradition, I'll tell him that.

I'm curious whether there might be some misunderstanding. There is, indeed, a garment called a "kittel", which is like a long white jacket. In my experience, though, it is typically only the leader of the seder who wears a kittel.

I'll agree with the others--asking in advance is always the best way to minimize embarrassment. But knowing what question to ask comes with time and experience.

 

[Lulav]

My grandson is going to attend the Passover Seder with my daughter and me this year and he's expressed some interest in a prayer shawl but he's worried about proper use of it.
I've noticed that the men at the congregation we attend seem to have a little ritual when they put it on where they kiss the corners of it. However, I looked up a video on youtube and the man giving a demonstration didn't do this.

Anyway, do you all think it's okay for my grandson to wear a prayer shawl to the seder, and does he need special instruction before wearing it?

I agree with everyone else here. The Seder you are attending is where? If it is a true Seder (not a demonstration of one) it would start at sundown and talliot are not worn at night (tradition, but so is the tallit).

The tallit is simply a garment to attach the tzitzit to as modern clothing is more tailored than when this commandment was given. The tzitzit represent the 613 commandments and are there to remember them. If the person wearing it is not holding to them it is very misrepresentational.

As far as what the men are doing in your congregation. Look closer, when a Jewish man puts on the tallit a Blessing of G-d is said and that Blessing is actually written out in Hebrew on the Atara, or collar. Many Men read this, then kiss it, then put on the shawl.

Now kissing the corners? I can only imagine this is during a Torah service where the Torah is brought out and carried around among the people. You are not supposed to touch it directly, but use either a Siddur (prayer book) or many kiss their tzitzit and touch them to it as there is a great connection between the tzitzit and the Torah scroll.



Pat- don't bother.

 

[Lulav]

Also, looking online, I saw something called a "new covenant prayer shawl" that has the Messianic symbol on it. What do you think about that? Does the shawl need to be pure wool?

Just another way to make a buck. The 'Messianic symbol' is contested in some group, others think it is 'the' symbol from way back. I've done the research and am still a hold out.

I'll tell you one thing I see it more as a separation than anything. Those who wear it are always, more than likely, Gentiles. They made a big mistake when they started to market it as the 'grafted in symbol'. Jews aren't 'grafted in'.

Anyway, the tradition is to be wool, but again this is Jewish tradition. There are also specific colors for different ages of men too. Actually shades of blue or black, but modern ones wear very colorful ones too.

Unless your grandson has full understanding of the meaning of wearing the tzitzit then my opinion would be to not wear something that speaks of something you're not.

A nice white shirt and black pants would do fine for a Seder.

 

[Avodat]

Just another way to make a buck. The 'Messianic symbol' is contested in some group, others think it is 'the' symbol from way back. I've done the research and am still a hold out.

I'll tell you one thing I see it more as a separation than anything. Those who wear it are always, more than likely, Gentiles. They made a big mistake when they started to market it as the 'grafted in symbol'. Jews aren't 'grafted in'.

Anyway, the tradition is to be wool, but again this is Jewish tradition. There are also specific colors for different ages of men too. Actually shades of blue or black, but modern ones wear very colorful ones too.

Unless your grandson has full understanding of the meaning of wearing the tzitzit then my opinion would be to not wear something that speaks of something you're not.

A nice white shirt and black pants would do fine for a Seder.

They actually say the exact opposite. It is based on Romans 11:17. I suggest you read the little book on it before misleading others

 

[Lulav]

They actually say the exact opposite. It is based on Romans 11:17. I suggest you read the little book on it before misleading others

who is they?
I know what it's based on
And which little book are you recommending I read
and how am I misleading anyone?

I am giving information based on study, and life experience.

 

[Avodat]

who is they?
I know what it's based on
And which little book are you recommending I read
and how am I misleading anyone?

I am giving information based on study, and life experience.

Sorry, but if your statement about Jews not being grafted in, as being what the symbol is about, is to be taken seriously, it is very clear that you do not know about the symbol. The whole point of the symbol is the exact opposite of what you claim - ergo you are mis-leading people on this, maybe not intentionally, but you certainly have it back to front.

What is your life experience in relation to the symbol?

 

[Lulav]

never mind, I'll start another thread so as to not derail this one.


Here's the new thread

Are Jews 'Grafted In'?

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I agree with everyone else here. The Seder you are attending is where? If it is a true Seder (not a demonstration of one) it would start at sundown and talliot are not worn at night (tradition, but so is the tallit).

The tallit is simply a garment to attach the tzitzit to as modern clothing is more tailored than when this commandment was given. The tzitzit represent the 613 commandments and are there to remember them. If the person wearing it is not holding to them it is very misrepresentational.

As far as what the men are doing in your congregation. Look closer, when a Jewish man puts on the tallit a Blessing of G-d is said and that Blessing is actually written out in Hebrew on the Atara, or collar. Many Men read this, then kiss it, then put on the shawl.

Now kissing the corners? I can only imagine this is during a Torah service where the Torah is brought out and carried around among the people. You are not supposed to touch it directly, but use either a Siddur (prayer book) or many kiss their tzitzit and touch them to it as there is a great connection between the tzitzit and the Torah scroll.



Pat- don't bother.

Yes, it's a real seder at or HaOlam in Overland Park, KS. Marty Goetz will be there and I'm looking forward to that.
I'm sure what I saw at the congregation was the men reading the blessing and then kissing the collar.

And I'm glad you pointed out that if one doesn't believe they're holding to the 613, it's not cool to wear a prayer shawl. I'll have a talk with my grandson about that.
Yes.......we have a lot to learn.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I'm curious whether there might be some misunderstanding. There is, indeed, a garment called a "kittel", which is like a long white jacket. In my experience, though, it is typically only the leader of the seder who wears a kittel.

I'll agree with the others--asking in advance is always the best way to minimize embarrassment. But knowing what question to ask comes with time and experience.

Yes, my thought as well.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Prayer shawls?
What are ya, a JUDAIZER ???
Seder or otherwise, Ancient Israel is in the history-books, not for today!!!

(I'm being super-ironic here guys)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Personally, I have no idea why people want to wear prayer shawls at Pesach seders- the Jews don't do it because the Seder is held after dark.

Maybe Messianics do, but that begs the question- why? And why go against established tradition based on centuries of careful Torah study?

It's not my place to say what to do in anyone else's congregation, but I would simply ask your son to conform to the custom of the people hosting the Seder.

Ditto...