Prayer by a non-Christian?

[heron]

"Don't let you get in the way of your faith"

What people often call their own logic is simply fear of believing in something unseen. Centuries of people have documented many things that they've never quite been able to prove, and have fended off a lot of scoffing and ridicule. That doesn't mean that they didn't see or experience anything. Logic should not be equated with fear of intimidation. Intelligence should not be limited to what's acceptable.

 

[StuckRags]

I have no doubt that God is the ultimate logistician. Humans cannot "out-reason" God because God has more information than they do.

You can't out-wit the baker as to how his cake is made.

 

[Mya14qt101]

Evidently you already believe in God otherwise you wouldn't be speaking His name. Just by you saying the word God inplies that He exists otherwise you wouldn't be able to say His name. You can believe that there is a God without believing that He is your savior. The Bible says that even Satan believes in God. But I believe you should pray to Him and ask God to show you how to believe. Ask Him for help and to come into your heart. Romans 10:9 says that if you believe with your heart and confess with your mouth that God raises His only Son from the dead and that Jesus is Lord, then you shall be saved.
Try God out and I garantee that you will not be disappointed, but you have to learn to put your Trust in Him.

 

[StuckRags]

Evidently you already believe in God otherwise you wouldn't be speaking His name. Just by you saying the word God inplies that He exists otherwise you wouldn't be able to say His name.

Mya, while the rest of your post was very good, the logic you've implied in the above statement says that if one says, "there is no God," then that means they automatically believe there is a God, because they said his name.

I believe you are referring to the passage in the Bible where Jesus says no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," unless they are a believer. And I don't think Jesus means that the words "Jesus is Lord" coming from your mouth are sufficient for belief. You must, indeed, believe it is true; that HE is YOUR Lord.

 

[Fuzzy Fungi]

Evidently you already believe in God otherwise you wouldn't be speaking His name. Just by you saying the word God inplies that He exists otherwise you wouldn't be able to say His name.

What the ****? I can say the name of Santa and not believe he exists. Honestly, I find your assumption about my beliefs excruciatingly offensive.

 

[Fuzzy Fungi]

I think understand what everyone is saying about God existing outside of the bounds of logic. All well and good, but there must still be a reason for faith; even if logic cannot describe God there must still be something to convince the believer. I cannot jump into this blindly, I've never been good with faith exercises In the stereotypical exercise of falling backwards into someones arms, I always refused.

Bizzlebin, the only Greek Orthodox parish listed in my province, coincidentally, is apparantly just in the neighbouring city. Psychadelic. I may consider attending... But being a Greek Orthodox church, isn't there a significant chance that I will not understand a single word said by anyone? Lol.

I am still unsure of prayer. I'd feel like a bloody fool doing it, as if I was talking to the wall, except worse as that "wall" is even physically in front of me. But what other option is there to become convinced, one way or another?

What sort of prayer should one such as myself do?

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Bizzlebin, the only Greek Orthodox parish listed in my province, coincidentally, is apparantly just in the neighbouring city. Psychadelic. I may consider attending... But being a Greek Orthodox church, isn't there a significant chance that I will not understand a single word said by anyone? Lol.

I am still unsure of prayer. I'd feel like a bloody fool doing it, as if I was talking to the wall, except worse as that "wall" is even physically in front of me. But what other option is there to become convinced, one way or another?

What sort of prayer should one such as myself do?

One key aspect of Orthodoxy is that it is a "local" religion. All the churches are supposed to conduct services in the local language, and so forth. So, unless there are a lot of Greeks, or some other nationality, it should be mostly, if not entirely, in English.

Do the Jesus Prayer: "O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me"

If you do just 100, or only 50, repetitions a day, it will help. I suggest you get an icon as well (Christ Pantocrator is always nice.) Make sure you don't pray to the icon, but it can certainly provide a useful visual.

 

[Fuzzy Fungi]

Does not the bible say something against repetitions as prayer? I don't know the verse or where it might be, but I seem to recall hearing something about this.

I think I will leave purchasing icons and the like until I believe they serve a purpose. I seek to try prayer, and see what happens. Not bow down and begin going all-out worshipping something I do not even believe is there.

Should I choose to visit this church, is there any particular date/time that is best for a first-timer? Would I have much opportunity to speak to the priest afterwards? I've been asking numerous people for their reasoning to believe in God... A priest, I'm sure, would likely have a much more thought out and convincing answer

 

[StuckRags]

Does not the bible say something against repetitions as prayer?

Indeed. Prayer to the Father in Jesus name is simply an effort on your part to establish a relationship with him. There is no formula. How would you establish a relationship with a regular human being? Talking is the best way to start.

Fuzzy, you have indicated that you are a "seeker." What are you seeking? This might help others to help you find it if we knew what exactly it was you were looking for.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Does not the bible say something against repetitions as prayer? I don't know the verse or where it might be, but I seem to recall hearing something about this.

I think I will leave purchasing icons and the like until I believe they serve a purpose. I seek to try prayer, and see what happens. Not bow down and begin going all-out worshipping something I do not even believe is there.

Should I choose to visit this church, is there any particular date/time that is best for a first-timer? Would I have much opportunity to speak to the priest afterwards? I've been asking numerous people for their reasoning to believe in God... A priest, I'm sure, would likely have a much more thought out and convincing answer

There is a difference between repetition and vain repetition, or Jesus wouldn't have prayed the same prayers again and again.

They serve a similar purpose as the Bible: they tell the Good News, only in pictoral form.

A lot of parishes have a coffee hour or lunch after service, there should be plenty of time to talk with the priest. You could call and set up something ahead of time if you like though.

 

[clementor]

I am still unsure of prayer. I'd feel like a bloody fool doing it, as if I was talking to the wall,
What sort of prayer should one such as myself do?

Fuzzy, I agree with Bizzlebin, hunt down a priest and talk with him. Also keep in mind what Mother Teresa said, prayer is a conversation with God and many people cannot hear His reply to them because they will not be quiet. They want to dominate the conversation. Talk to Him and then be quiet for at least the same length of time that you talked/prayed and listen for an answer.

If you feel like a fool then think of it this way, if there is no God then it's just you and the wall that will know, however if God is there then you have just made some progress.

The Jesus Prayer is perfect for a beginner (and old-timers too!)

May God's peace be with you on your journey+

 

[PassionateChemistry]

Many people suggest to non-believers that we should pray to God to "try out faith".

A prayer is essentially "being in communion with God" or "speaking to God". That implies a belief in God. If I do not have faith that God is there, and I pray to him, would that not make me a liar?

you could still pray to God if you dont believe in God; God wont judge you to be a liar; God is not like that

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

How can one rely too much on logic? I am certain that with enough knowledge, logic could define truth. Truth cannot contradict truth, so if God is the truth, logic can do no harm.

How would I go about "hunting down" P, I thought of the wording and thought I should change it, but it made me laugh too much) a priest or monk in my local area?

If that were true you would be able to explain how one God is in three persons...

1+1+1=1 ? Logical?

Or how about the two natures of Christ.

100% man + 100% God = 100% Christ. ? Logical?

How about rising form the dead?

How about that we are spiritually alive even after our physical death?

God works outside our time/space reality, it has nothing to define him....

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

 

[swifteagle]

Hi Fuzzy~

I've been reading through everyone's posts and I have a question. Are you Catholic? No offense, but I didn't see any indication from your profile or anything that you have written that tells me you are seeking a Catholic religious experience.

And...I don't think you are seeking a "religious" experience. The Pharisees were rebuked by Jesus for being "religious".

Anyway, back to your question. As others have stated in the previous posts, prayer is just talking to God. You don't need to say the same things over and over again. You certainly don't need any icons, (Jesus was the ultimate iconoclast). Find a Pastor that can pastor your spirit!


Ask God to show Himself to you. He wants to bring you revelation of Himself. God is not intellectually understood, He is a revelation to your spirit. There is a "knowing" inside that people get (sometimes called a quickening) when the Lord talks to you. Sometimes when I am asking God about something, He will immediately give me a picture in my mind's eye about it. Or, if I am considering doing something and I'm not sure about it, I will feel "restrained" and not feel "released" to do it. God speaks to us all in different ways.

Bless you in your pursuit of Him!

swifteagle ><<>

 

[Fuzzy Fungi]

I am not Catholic. My family is Presbyterian, although I am personally an agnostic, someone who simply doesn't know either way whether God is there or not. It frustrates me that I do not have convincing knowledge, and I seek to get it. I am not interested in Catholicism, as I disagree whole-heartedly with the concept that any human being can be infallible (The Pope) in any respect. To me, the idea of a human being infallible in anything is impossible, and utter ********.

I am also not very interested in Protestantism. If I am to follow the Christian religion, I wish to follow it as it was originally intended. Didn't Christ pray that the Church be kept as one? If Protestantism is correct, it would seem his prayer was not answered. I would take this as evidence that Christ was not God, because as God his will should have been done.

I am interested in Orthodoxy. They are one church, and make claims to be almost exactly as the Church was in the beginning, so if Christianity is correct I believe the Orthodox Church would be the correct manifestation of it.

I thought Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being hypocrites?

I agree, I do not need icons. I believe Bizzlebin was suggesting icons as aids. You do not need shoes to walk. What do you mean by Jesus as the "ultimate iconoclast"?

You suggest I rely on feelings to decide whether or not my prayers have been answered? I feel like lazing about today, rather than doing work. Is that the right thing to do? I feel like overeating and binging on cookies. Is that the right thing to do? I feel like stabbing someone in the face because they irritate me. Is that right thing to do? No, no, no. I see a cool commercial about something... I just know if I buy it, I will be satisfied. True? No. Feelings are very unreliable. Isn't there a bible quote concerning people in the dark loving the dark? If we exist in a dark world, wouldn't it make sense that our feelings would lead is in opposition to the will of God? I want something more concrete.

Orthodoxusa, if God exists he would exist outside of our space and time. We have no reference point from which to define him, and as such cannot logically do so. But if we could also rise outside of space and time and get the information we would need, I am certain we could make logical sense out of it. I'm agreeing that logic cannot define God. But logic must at least be capable of saying whether or not he exists. If it's true that God acts in the world, it must be possible to seek out these effects and work backwards to find a source.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I am not Catholic. My family is Presbyterian, although I am personally an agnostic, someone who simply doesn't know either way whether God is there or not. It frustrates me that I do not have convincing knowledge, and I seek to get it. I am not interested in Catholicism, as I disagree whole-heartedly with the concept that any human being can be infallible (The Pope) in any respect. To me, the idea of a human being infallible in anything is impossible, and utter ********.

I am also not very interested in Protestantism. If I am to follow the Christian religion, I wish to follow it as it was originally intended. Didn't Christ pray that the Church be kept as one? If Protestantism is correct, it would seem his prayer was not answered. I would take this as evidence that Christ was not God, because as God his will should have been done.

I am interested in Orthodoxy. They are one church, and make claims to be almost exactly as the Church was in the beginning, so if Christianity is correct I believe the Orthodox Church would be the correct manifestation of it.

I thought Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being hypocrites?

I agree, I do not need icons. I believe Bizzlebin was suggesting icons as aids. You do not need shoes to walk. What do you mean by Jesus as the "ultimate iconoclast"?

You suggest I rely on feelings to decide whether or not my prayers have been answered? I feel like lazing about today, rather than doing work. Is that the right thing to do? I feel like overeating and binging on cookies. Is that the right thing to do? I feel like stabbing someone in the face because they irritate me. Is that right thing to do? No, no, no. I see a cool commercial about something... I just know if I buy it, I will be satisfied. True? No. Feelings are very unreliable. Isn't there a bible quote concerning people in the dark loving the dark? If we exist in a dark world, wouldn't it make sense that our feelings would lead is in opposition to the will of God? I want something more concrete.

Orthodoxusa, if God exists he would exist outside of our space and time. We have no reference point from which to define him, and as such cannot logically do so. But if we could also rise outside of space and time and get the information we would need, I am certain we could make logical sense out of it. I'm agreeing that logic cannot define God. But logic must at least be capable of saying whether or not he exists. If it's true that God acts in the world, it must be possible to seek out these effects and work backwards to find a source.

I'm not saying that it can't be done... but I don't think after taking college Philosophy, proving God logically is very improbable.

If you wish to experience God outside space/time in a mystical manner, I would suggest going to a Devine Liturgy at an Orthodox Church.

Our logic is too pitiful for attemping such things.

I like you analogy of ICONS and shoes..... that's just too cool.

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me...

 

[swifteagle]

Didn't Christ pray that the Church be kept as one? If Protestantism is correct, it would seem his prayer was not answered. I would take this as evidence that Christ was not God, because as God his will should have been done.

Jesus came as God but fully human. He set aside His divinity while on earth to show us how to live as humans being empowered by God in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:6-11

The "oneness" that Jesus prayed for actually has been accomplished "In Christ". We are one loaf ~

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 1 Cor 10:16-17

We are One "In Christ". Do we always manifest that oneness? No. But that doesn't make it not true!

"I thought Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being hypocrites?"

Yes, you are right. He did rebuke them for being hypocrites and that is also what "religion" does to people it makes them self righteous. The Pharisees were VERY religious but they had no love or mercy ~ they were very legalistic!

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former.
Matt 23:23

"What do you mean by Jesus as the 'ultimate iconoclast'?"

How did the religious leaders of Jesus day expect the Messiah to come? They expected a king to come and establish the Kingdom. What did they get? A baby in a manger. Jesus did not "show-up" in all the glory that was expected. He came in a VERY humble way. He broke their images of what the Messiah was going to do and be and He continued to do that throughout his life. His first miracle was turning water into wine. Now is that an image of what a Messiah would do? He spit in mud and put it into a blind mans eyes and he could see. He healed on the Sabbath. These are all example of breaking down the idol images of what people expected. People respect money ~ Jesus had none. People want glory & fame ~ Jesus had very few followers left when he was crucified. Jesus said the way up is the way down.....


"You suggest I rely on feelings to decide whether or not my prayers have been answered? I feel like lazing about today, rather than doing work. Is that the right thing to do? I feel like overeating and binging on cookies. Is that the right thing to do? I feel like stabbing someone in the face because they irritate me. Is that right thing to do? No, no, no. I see a cool commercial about something... I just know if I buy it, I will be satisfied. True? No. Feelings are very unreliable. Isn't there a bible quote concerning people in the dark loving the dark? If we exist in a dark world, wouldn't it make sense that our feelings would lead is in opposition to the will of God? I want something more concrete."

Actually that is NOT what I said, sorry I must not have been clear. When you receive Christ as your Saviour (Become born-again, saved), your Spirit man is made alive. The Holy Spirit takes up residency in your Spirit man! This does not mean that you are God. It means that His Spirit resides in you. It quickens you at times and gives you the ability to "hear God". These are not soulish feelings (from your mind, will or emotions). They are Spirit feelings. Because now your spirit is alive in Christ you have the ability to "hear" Him.

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

(Read Romans chapters 6,7 & 8 to get more on the struggle between the flesh and the spirit)

I know the Lord is drawing you or you wouldn't be searching so diligently. Bless you Fuzzy! I am praying that everything will be clearer for you.

swifteagle ><>>

PS. Sorry about the lack of "quote boxes". I am having trouble making it work right and I am on DIAL-UP! UGGGGGG!!!!!

 

[Observer]

Faith or belief in God, or even developing the ability to CONSIDER that God exists, is a process, and takes time from birth. We're not born with the maturity to understand the concept of God. Well, most people aren't.

Prayer is not a waste of time for an unbeliever. Some people seem to forget that there's a bridge between Atheist, Agnostic and Christian. I've never known an Atheist or an Agnostic to wake up one morning and say, "Wow, I suddenly believe in God this morning, I think I'll start praying!". I personally know that prayers by unbelievers are not "a waste of time", because I've prayed as an unbeliever, and those prayers are what helped me grow closer to God.

If you pray other people's prayers, I guess it would be a waste of time. You're not a Christian and you can't pray their Christian prayers, because you simply don't believe what they believe... But you can pray your own prayers that are true to you, no matter what you believe. I don’t think anyone can tell you how you’ll know that God is listening... only God knows how to do that for you. If you consider other people's signs from God to be, well, not good enough... don't write off God, because he'll show you himself in a way that you respect and understand.

I’ve told God that I don’t believe in him at all. I said, if you’re real, show me who you are because I can’t understand or accept the concept of you. I was basically just praying because I acknowledged that I’m not an all-knowing being, so I wanted to confirm my belief that God didn’t exist, by doing what Christians told me to, pray. I just forced myself to pray, I think. I’ve also directed plenty of bad things toward God in prayer. I’ve told him that I hate him, that he likes to play with my mind, that he created us because he’s vain and wants to be worshipped, humans are just a little game to him, he’s evil, he’s not there, sworn at him etc. I just told him what I really felt, I guess. I feel like he still listened to me even when I said those things, and tried to help me understand it all.

One thing that used to confuse me a lot, is that Christians would invite me to share a prayer with them for God/Jesus to come into my heart. At that time, I somewhat wanted to find out whether God was real or not, so I agreed to pray. I couldn't ever complete the prayer, because somewhere in there, they'd ask me to repeat, "Jesus, I believe you died on the cross for my sins", "Jesus, I believe in you", or, "Jesus, I believe that you are the Son of God". I just couldn't say it because I didn't believe it. They basically told me that I couldn’t ask God to show himself to me if I couldn’t say that I believe. It confused me... I thought, how am I supposed to believe in God before I even believe in him? That doesn't make sense but it's the only way that I can explain it. Seems like those people were saying that you already have to be a Christian before you can develop into a Christian. I don't know where that comes from, it's like some people forget that period when THEY were an unbeliever, when THEY couldn't say that they believe in God.

Anyway, I’m finished rambling. God doesn't reject or discount non-believers' prayers, or consider them lies. There wouldn’t be very many believers if he did.