Prayer and Free Will

[BPPLEE]

Hello Dan,

Do you believe that our prayers, since they are clearly Effectual, can alter a person's life against their permission? Can we violate a person's sense of free will in that way?

God may cause circumstances to lead us a certain way but I don’t believe he forces us against our will.

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for all that you offered above.

Do you think, since our prayers are clearly Effectual in the lives of others, they violate the sense of free will of a person?

It is clear that the Spirit of Christ that inspired James in Chapter 5 was not promoting a doctrine that violated men’s free will choice to repent and turn to God.

However, those who have made the choice to turn to God can be helped by others who have made the same choice. That seems to be the point James is making, if a person considers the whole chapter.

 

[Oneofhope]

God may cause circumstances to lead us a certain way but I don’t believe he forces us against our will.

I hear you. My question is, since our prayers clearly are Effectual in the lives of other people, does this violate the subject's sense of free will?

 

[Oneofhope]

It is clear that the Spirit of Christ that inspired James in Chapter 5 was not promoting a doctrine that violated men’s free will choice to repent and turn to God.

However, those who have made the choice to turn to God can be helped by others who have made the same choice. That seems to be the point James is making, if a person considers the whole chapter.

I hear you. Were you aware that there is quite a handful of prayers from Holy men who prayed that God would change them? Some of the prayers were positive, others were very, well . . . horrible. Do you think it was wrong for our Fathers of Faith to do such a thing?

 

[BPPLEE]

I hear you. Were you aware that there is quite a handful of prayers from Holy men who prayed that God would change them? Some of the prayers were positive, others were very, well . . . horrible. Do you think it was wrong for our Fathers of Faith to do such a thing?

Well Moses prayed on behalf of Israel when God was going to wipe them out and God “repented” (changed his mind) and spared them. How can God repent or change his mind? Yet he did.

 

[BPPLEE]

I hear you. My question is, since our prayers clearly are Effectual in the lives of other people, does this violate the subject's sense of free will?

I don’t believe their free will is ever violated.

 

[trophy33]

If my prayers change the life of a person beyond their consent, how is their sense of free will not violated?

In the same way as life happens to you, even if you do not plan that. We do not control our circumstances or life events fully.

Did you give consent what country you will be born in, in what family, what colleagues you will have, what neighbors, what type of body, what accidents will be happening in your life or about today's weather?

 

[Rose_bud]

The Bible clearly states that when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for.

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

Hi there

Prayer is how we are to communicate with God. Trusting for an outcome according to the will of God.

That being said there are a lot of "unknowns or variables" that we cannot account for. ie, the absolute wisdom and will of God in a specific situation, faith (of the one praying and of the one prayed for), persistent prayer, would the outcome be different in communal prayer or individual prayer? What about the activity of the spiritual agents etc.

Are we violating the person free will, I think It's an unknown variable.. like some of the above.

Are we to pray of course...

 

[Studyman]

I hear you. Were you aware that there is quite a handful of prayers from Holy men who prayed that God would change them? Some of the prayers were positive, others were very, well . . . horrible. Do you think it was wrong for our Fathers of Faith to do such a thing?

I would not exalt myself to the position of judge of the prayers of those who God Deemed as "Holy men" in the Scriptures. So I have no idea what you are speaking to. For me, the Holy Scriptures were written for my admonition. Not for me to Judge the prayers of Abraham or Noah or other "fathers of faith". But for me to learn and grow in the knowledge of God through their example.

 

[Oneofhope]

Well Moses prayed on behalf of Israel when God was going to wipe them out and God “repented” (changed his mind) and spared them. How can God repent or change his mind? Yet he did.

I hear you. Were you aware that there is quite a handful of prayers from Holy men who prayed that God would change them? Some of the prayers were positive, others were very, well . . . horrible. Do you think it was wrong for our Fathers of Faith to do such a thing?

 

[Oneofhope]

I don’t believe their free will is ever violated.

I hear you. Would you say that David was wrong when he prayed the following Effect into Ahithophel? God honored that prayer, by the way. Was it wrong for David to have this impact upon Ahithophel against his knowledge and will?

2 Samuel 15:31 NLT - "When someone told David that his adviser Ahithophel was now backing Absalom, David prayed, "O LORD, let Ahithophel give Absalom foolish advice!"

 

[Oneofhope]

In the same way as life happens to you, even if you do not plan that. We do not control our circumstances or life events fully.

Did you give consent what country you will be born in, in what family, what colleagues you will have, what neighbors, what type of body, what accidents will be happening in your life or about today's weather?

Thank you for your offering.

What I am saying is different. For example, there are plenty of unkind people, here, who thrill off of goading others into conflict. They enjoy it and don't want to change. In fact, some evil people create accounts, here, simply to sew discord. Would it be wrong of me to pray to God that these people would actually be nice? And if God honored my prayer and these people became kind . . . is their sense of free will violated?

 

[Oneofhope]

Hi there

Prayer is how we are to communicate with God. Trusting for an outcome according to the will of God.

That being said there are a lot of "unknowns or variables" that we cannot account for. ie, the absolute wisdom and will of God in a specific situation, faith (of the one praying and of the one prayed for), persistent prayer, would the outcome be different in communal prayer or individual prayer? What about the activity of the spiritual agents etc.

Are we violating the person free will, I think It's an unknown variable.. like some of the above.

Are we to pray of course...

Hi there!!!

What I am saying is . . . for example . . . if you knew that I was praying things for you that you didn't want . . . how would you feel? If my prayers are Effectual, and the Bible is 100% clear on that, would you be concerned about my prayers if you disagreed with them?

 

[BPPLEE]

I hear you. Were you aware that there is quite a handful of prayers from Holy men who prayed that God would change them? Some of the prayers were positive, others were very, well . . . horrible. Do you think it was wrong for our Fathers of Faith to do such a thing?

It’s not for me to judge them or second guess them.

 

[Oneofhope]

I would not exalt myself to the position of judge of the prayers of those who God Deemed as "Holy men" in the Scriptures. So I have no idea what you are speaking to. For me, the Holy Scriptures were written for my admonition. Not for me to Judge the prayers of Abraham or Noah or other "fathers of faith". But for me to learn and grow in the knowledge of God through their example.

Thank you so much! I'm not sure what that has to do the question that I repeatedly ask throughout this thread. But thanks again!

 

[Oneofhope]

It’s not for me to judge them or second guess them.

Lol. Ok.

 

[BPPLEE]

Lol. Ok.

Unless you mean like Balaam who sought to curse Israel and every time he opened his mouth a blessing came out.

 

[Studyman]

Hi there!!!

What I am saying is . . . for example . . . if you knew that I was praying things for you that you didn't want . . . how would you feel? If my prayers are Effectual, and the Bible is 100% clear on that, would you be concerned about my prayers if you disagreed with them?

You keep forgetting, "The Prayers of a Righteous man". And a Righteous man would pray for God's will to be done. And you are taking James out of context, by not accepting that he is speaking to the Brethren who confess their faults one to another and are to pray one for the other.

On this the Bible is 100% clear.

 

[Oneofhope]

You keep forgetting, "The Prayers of a Righteous man". And a Righteous man would pray for God's will to be done. And you are taking James out of context, by not accepting that he is speaking to the Brethren who confess their faults one to another and are to pray one for the other.

On this the Bible is 100% clear.

Respectfully, it isn't that I am taking things out of context, it is more that you're not understanding my words.

But, ok. Let's take James out of the picture and start looking at other examples of prayer being used as an Effectual tool.

2 Samuel 15:31 NLT - "When someone told David that his adviser Ahithophel was now backing Absalom, David prayed, "O LORD, let Ahithophel give Absalom foolish advice!"

If someone prayed this prayer about you, that you, Studyman, would be confused and give the wrong advice . . . how would you feel about that?

As I noted with another person here, God honored that prayer of Ahithophel.

 

[Studyman]

Respectfully, it isn't that I am taking things out of context, it is more that you're not understanding my words.

But, ok. Let's take James out of the picture and start looking at other examples of prayer being used as an Effectual tool.

2 Samuel 15:31 NLT - "When someone told David that his adviser Ahithophel was now backing Absalom, David prayed, "O LORD, let Ahithophel give Absalom foolish advice!"

If someone prayed this prayer about you, that you, Studyman, would be confused and give the wrong advice . . . how would you feel about that?

As I noted with another person here, God honored that prayer of Ahithophel.

Again, you can't seem to see what James, and David are dealing with.

In James 5, the Church of God is endangered by lawless men.


1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. 4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. 5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

But the Church of God praying one for another is protected, because the Prayer of a Righteous man availeth much.


In 2 Sam 15, the Church of God is endangered by Lawless men.

13 And there came a messenger to David, saying, The hearts of the men of Israel are after Absalom. 14 And David said unto all his servants that were with him at Jerusalem, (God's Church) Arise, and let us flee; for we shall not else escape from Absalom: make speed to depart, lest he overtake us suddenly, and bring evil upon us, and smite the city with the edge of the sword.

30 And David went up by the ascent of mount Olivet, and wept as he went up, and had his head covered, and he went barefoot: and all the people that was with him covered every man his head, and they went up, weeping as they went up. 31 And one told David, saying, Ahithophel is among the conspirators with Absalom. And David said, O LORD, I pray thee, turn the counsel of Ahithophel into foolishness.

David wouldn't pray for the demise of those members of God's Church but did pray that the deceivers and Conspirators would not harm God's People.

James, in like manner, also promoted the same Philosophy, that God's Church pray one for another, protecting one another, because the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

David or James wouldn't make that prayer against a man who has "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God. But they would against deceivers who would promote lies about God and conspire against, condemn and kill the Just.

If I am on Absolom's side, or on the side of the "Many" deceivers "Who call Jesus Lord, Lord" but are children of disobedience, I can expect the prayers of a righteous man to be against me.

But if I'm on David's Side, or on the side of the Lord's Christ, the prayers of the righteous will be for me.

I hope you might consider these truths.