Praise Song Cruncher by Table Talk Radio

John Robie · Oct 19, 2015

twin1954 said:
Actually go back and read what I wrote. I used myself as an example not as the yardstick by which to measure. Also point me to where I said it was a sin. I do have some knowledge as to why people do such things. I ain't a spring chicken and have been around a lot. I have been observing people for many years and I also know what is in my own heart. I am very familiar with what the Scriptures say about man and his heart and actions as well. Everything I have said is based in my experience, my observations of people and my knowledge of the Scriptures, not necessarily in that order.

You seem to simply not like what I said because it goes against what you want to do. You are smart enough to show me how and why I am wrong, if I am, without the appeals to emotion and ad hominems. You are the one making it about me because you simply can't refute what I actually said.

So you use an ad hominem to accuse me of an ad hom. Okay. But mine is not one because you did make it about you, as I pointed out. And I did refute what you said. There's nothing unbiblical about raising your hands to worship. Just the contrary. There's no prohibition against saw sung to the music. You think it's fleshly so you found a verse that's says don't do fleshly things.

My point is that if there's no prohibition, then it's actually a sin to say it's wrong. That's legalism. If you don't want to raise your hands and sway, but you are still worshipping, that is fantastic. You should be okay with the brother or sister standing next to you with their hands raised in worship. You should be more concerned with the fact that it distracts you and examine why it really does.

John Robie · Oct 19, 2015

miamited said:
Hi all,

One of our participants wrote:

Added comment: I also refuse to sing songs that are supposedly about God but actually end up about me. I will not sing about how much I love Jesus because my love for Him is not worth mentioning, especially compared to His love for me. I will not sing about how I found Jesus because I didn't find Him, He was never lost, He found me.

I'm just wondering, am I the only person that finds the expression of this theology sad?

I'm just curious and yes, if this post is out of line with the rules of engagement then feel free to delete it.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted

There are songs that go too far, in my opinion. But just singing about my love for Him isn't any more wrong than me expressing my love for Him in prayer. I see no difference.

twin1954 · Oct 19, 2015

miamited said:
Hi all,

One of our participants wrote:

Added comment: I also refuse to sing songs that are supposedly about God but actually end up about me. I will not sing about how much I love Jesus because my love for Him is not worth mentioning, especially compared to His love for me. I will not sing about how I found Jesus because I didn't find Him, He was never lost, He found me.

I'm just wondering, am I the only person that finds the expression of this theology sad?

I'm just curious and yes, if this post is out of line with the rules of engagement then feel free to delete it.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted

I am sure you are not the only one but I have never denied or tried to hide my theology. I am a five point Calvinist and if you disagree with my theology that is your prerogative but you cannot refute it. But my theology is not the focus of this thread so yes it is out of line with the topic.

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

deleted...accident posted twice....see one below

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

John Mark McMillan wrote How He Loves. Here are some of the reasons he wrote it after his best friend died. The following is from the wiki site:

It is a kind of love that is willing to love even when things are difficult and messy. He says, "This song isn't a celebration of weakness and anger. It's a celebration of a God who would want to hang with us through those things, who would want to be a part of our lives through those things, and, despite who we are, He would want to be a part of us, our community, and our family.

Now tell me, how does this fit into what you wrote? I'm clueless, because you are not saying the same thing he did. Despite all we are, the author says God just wants to be apart of our lives. Really? Through all yours sinning, he doesn't mind. he just wants to hang despite it?

miamited said:
Hi mike,

Ok, I'll see if I can help in your understanding. It begins by explaining that God is jealous for His children. I believe that to be a sound theologically correct understanding. God has declared that He is a jealous God and particulary jealous for Israel. Then tells us that His love is like the force of a hurricane. Relentless and nothing can stand in its way. He says how he is merely like a tree bent by the force of this great love. Again, I believe theologically sound reasoning.

He is suddenly made aware of his affliction and how great God's love and affection is towards him. This pretty much describes the moment that we come to when each of us is born again. We suddenly understand the depth and consequences of our sin and rebellion towards God, but also begin to understand the depth of His love and mercy in His provision of His Son for our sin.

Then the chorus calls each one of us to understand these things and understand just how much God loves us. Oh, how He loves us. Oh, how He loves us. It is a cry from the soul that is born again to those who are not. The song is asking for each one of us to understand the affliction of sin and the great love that God is holding out for them?

Then he repeats the initial premise and goes on to tell us that we are Jesus' portion and we are his prize. We are the body of believers that Jesus is carrying in his train to present to His Father as the 'prize' of all the work that the Son has done. Jesus came to give his life for us and he will ultimately take those who have understood and accepted what he has done and are then born again, and carry them to the Father as his offering or prize to Him. We are the offering for which Jesus came unto the earth.

Then he sings of the emotions within himself when he thinks on all these things. Then he continues through the end of the song crying out to all those who will listen just how much he loves us.

Now, the video isn't particularly appealing to me in its visual representation, but the words...the words are true. It is a pure and heartfelt cry from one who has understood the gospel to those who haven't to understand the depth of God's love for us; to understand the gospel.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

miamited said:
Hi mike,

You wrote:
The first question is about Christ. Is he named. A Christian has no more great fullness than to realize what Jesus paid for.

While I absolutely agree with the second sentence, I'm not so convinced that there is any given instruction or intent made within the Scriptures that our praises thus need always be about him. I'm of a mind that God approves when we praise Him for His righteousness, goodness, love, provision and His many other attributes and blessings that He provides for us. Is there some place in the Scriptures where you find that all praises for God, put to music, must be about Jesus? That's all I'm asking. Can you support this set of rules that you are attempting to lay as a burden upon God's people through the Scriptures? Or, is it rather just your personal feeling or private understanding about such praise?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Is Jesus the object of our faith?

And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:1-2 ESV)

But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.(Galatians 6:14 ESV)

miamited · Oct 19, 2015

twin1954 said:
I am sure you are not the only one but I have never denied or tried to hide my theology. I am a five point Calvinist and if you disagree with my theology that is your prerogative but you cannot refute it. But my theology is not the focus of this thread so yes it is out of line with the topic.

Hi twin,

Actually, I can, but it would seem to be a waste of valuable time and energy with very little reward. I am glad, however, to see that you do understand that your arguments here are not in line with the issue of this thread.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Oct 19, 2015

mikedsjr said:
John Mark McMillan wrote How He Loves. Here are some of the reasons he wrote it after his best friend died. The following is from the wiki site:

Now tell me, how does this fit into what you wrote? I'm clueless, because you are not saying the same thing he did. Despite all we are, the author says God just wants to be apart of our lives. Really? Through all yours sinning, he doesn't mind. he just wants to hang despite it?

Hi mike,

Well, perhaps hearing directly from his own words would be even more accurate:

Of course I'm not saying the same thing he did. I'm not him. I'm just listening to a song that he wrote and deciphering from what he wrote what it likely means. Did I get his intentions for writing the song right? No, but again, I'm not him and I'm just listening to a song. However, is my interpretation and understanding outside of the realm of what the song seems to teach? No.

It is a song about the great love of God. It is a song that describes how we are bent to His mighty and overpowering will. Now, how that applies to his particular circumstance is one thing, but how it applies to each one of us in our particular circumstance may be completely different. I think one must understand that with any book or song the author may be prompted to write by some particular experience in their life, but unless it's an actual biographical account, then the things written are up for interpretation by the reader.

Did Mr. McMillan say the same things that I did from listening to his song? No. He's not me, but the words that he wrote, to me, describe an even greater love. One that is not prompted by doubt as he explains, but rather one that is prompted by the comforting knowledge of that love.

However, I'm glad to hear that you now have done the research and understand the intent of the song, whether from my explanation or his, and maybe you'll be more inclined to accept it as a song of praise as I'm quite sure, no matter the songwriters underlying intention, that he did intend it as a song of praise.

Here's his web page and it does have a contact page.

http://www.johnmarkmcmillan.com/

I did send him an email with a copy and paste of my full explanation asking if he agreed that I came away with a correct understanding. We'll see if he writes back and I'll let you know.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

John Robie said:
Just trying to flesh this out

He is jealous for me,
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree,
Bending beneath the weight of His wind and mercy.
When all of a sudden,
I am unaware of these afflictions eclipsed by glory,
And I realize just how beautiful You are,
And how great Your affections are for me.

What I see.

God loves us in the same way the Son loves the Father. It is an overwhelming love.

His mercy brings me to my knees.

When I see that, how great He is, my addictions are momentary and light.

What am I missing?

Well for one, your missing more lyrics.

for instance,

If grace is an ocean we're all sinking
So heaven meets earth like a sloppy
Wet kiss and my heart turns violently
Inside of my chest
I don't have time to maintain these regrets
When I think about the way.....(chorus)

David Crowder changed it to "unforseen kiss"

Very sexual charged.

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

miamited said:
Hi mike,

Well, perhaps hearing directly from his own words would be even more accurate:

Of course I'm not saying the same thing he did. I'm not him. I'm just listening to a song that he wrote and deciphering from what he wrote what it likely means. Did I get his intentions for writing the song right? No, but again, I'm not him and I'm just listening to a song. However, is my interpretation and understanding outside of the realm of what the song seems to teach? No.

It is a song about the great love of God. It is a song that describes how we are bent to His mighty and overpowering will. Now, how that applies to his particular circumstance is one thing, but how it applies to each one of us in our particular circumstance may be completely different. I think one must understand that with any book or song the author may be prompted to write by some particular experience in their life, but unless it's an actual biographical account, then the things written are up for interpretation by the reader.

Did Mr. McMillan say the same things that I did from listening to his song? No. He's not me, but the words that he wrote, to me, describe an even greater love. One that is not prompted by doubt as he explains, but rather one that is prompted by the comforting knowledge of that love.

However, I'm glad to hear that you now have done the research and understand the intent of the song, whether from my explanation or his, and maybe you'll be more inclined to accept it as a song of praise as I'm quite sure, no matter the songwriters underlying intention, that he did intend it as a song of praise.

Here's his web page and it does have a contact page.

http://www.johnmarkmcmillan.com/

I did send him an email with a copy and paste of my full explanation asking if he agreed that I came away with a correct understanding. We'll see if he writes back and I'll let you know.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hopefully he responds. My bet is he is an artist and believes whatever you believe it means is okay with him, so long as you aren't judging his work as bad theology.

I found this on his blog about the "sloppy wet kiss" that i just discussed.

All this to say, I don’t have a problem with David changing the line because he knows the people he is serving, and that line would have isolated the song from those people.

What I do have a problem with though, is that the condition of greater Christianity would be as such that he would even have to change it. I think the fact that a line like “Sloppy wet kiss” could be controversial is ridiculous. Are we in kindergarten? Has any one out there not had or at least expected to some day, engage in a sloppy wet kiss? Have Christians decided to stop procreating and let Islamic extremists populate the whole earth?

Some folks are genuinely sad because a song so personal to them seems to have been messed with, and others seem to be glad that you can now sing this song in church with your grandparents. I understand both of those sentiments, and don’t have an issue with either. Still many of the people, on both ends, who seem to be making a big deal out of it, have both seemed to misunderstand the lyric. It seems that people either hate it or love it because they think I’m some how talking about kissing God. Please folks, I never ever, ever, ever, thought of this line as though it was talking about kissing God. Please read the words.

“HEAVEN meets EARTH like a sloppy wet kiss”

The idea behind the lyric is that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of earth converge in a way that is both beautiful and awkwardly messy. Think about the birth of a child, or even the death of Jesus himself. These miracles are both incredibly beautiful and incredibly sloppy (“gory” may be more realistic, but “Heaven meets earth like a gory mess” didn’t seem to have the same ring). Why does the church have such a problem with things being sloppy? Do we really think we’re fooling anyone on Sunday morning, especially God? Are we going to offend him? I mean, he’s seen us naked in the shower all week and knows our worst thoughts, and still thinks we’re awesome. What if we took all the energy we spent faking and used that energy to enjoy the Lord instead? That could be revolutionary!

Final thoughts:

I applaud David for changing the line to serve his people, and at the same time I boo the machinery that would cause him to have to do so.
https://johnmarkmcmillan.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/how-he-loves-david-crowder-and-sloppy-wet-kisses/

Maybe you agree with him. I'm disturbed and i'm the one he considers the machine because I value clear theology. I'm not an artist.

To be clear. I'm specifically referring to songs sung in church.

miamited · Oct 19, 2015

Hi mike,

Well, I think we've sung it some of the fellowship worship that I've attended. As I said before, at least now your question of what the song means has been answered.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Bluelion · Oct 19, 2015

mikedsjr said:
I thought I would give a song that bothers me in church. This songs basically fails all 5 categories. I don't know how a song like this makes it in church. What do the lyrics even mean when compared to sound doctrine? If God is Jealous of you, it's because your a sinner and need to repent.

How he loves

Lol nothing He said was against God word. It fact it is all True when compared to God's word and what God tells us.

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

Ted, thanks for the posts. Eventually I will go back through again and examine everything again. Maybe my second time through will give me more insight. I would like to understand better. I'm having difficulty getting past my stance maybe.

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

Bluelion said:
Lol nothing He said was against God word. It fact it is all True when compared to God's word and what God tells us.

So what is it about?

Bluelion · Oct 19, 2015

mikedsjr said:
So what is it about?

? Oh how he loves us? He has jealousy for me, (I am a jealous God, the bible) I agree with you about the sloppy wet kiss part but you have to remember he has a sinful nature to like we all do. He corrected it what ever the reason maybe, for church well it should have been, but now it is fine.

Maybe I am i understand more because I was in a band, and wrote songs, and sang, played guitar i know what its like. I wish it had been a Christian band because then it may have been worth something instead of Just almost killing me.

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

Maybe there is a point where I have to just let it be and forget certain aspect I can't stand just to get me through and worship freely. I'm not quite sure I'll be able to bring myself to it 100% of the time. I, like twin, can not sing songs I feel are praising man. I'll change the words up to fit my theology. I can't say I'm Reformed, but my Lutheran bias places me closer to them. I find Lutheranism very freeing, despite many dislike the heavy emphasis on Jesus and his work. Everything in church is worship and praises God. The modern church can't see this.

miamited · Oct 19, 2015

mikedsjr said:
Ted, thanks for the posts. Eventually I will go back through again and examine everything again. Maybe my second time through will give me more insight. I would like to understand better. I'm having difficulty getting past my stance maybe.

Hi mike,

Listen, you're welcome to go back through and see if you like the song for worship purposes. Honestly I don't care if you do or you don't. As I've said, there are worship songs that I'm not particularly fond of. However, my intent here is not to make anyone like a particular song that they don't like. My intent here is to explain how wrong we are when we try to make rules and regulations about such things using a criteria that is not supported by the Scriptures.

There is no indication or instruction that I can find that all our praises that we sing to our God have to be about Jesus.

There is no indication or instruction that I can find that all our praises that we sing have to be about the law or the gospel.

ETC.

So, it's fine for someone to say, "I like worship songs that are about Jesus". Or, I like worship songs that explain the law or the gospel." That's fine for someone to feel that way about what they like in their worship singing. But we cross a very dangerous line, I believe, when we start using our personal likes and dislikes about some issue of worship that is clearly what Paul describes as a 'disputable matter'. Why is it disputable? Because it is something that the Scriptures do not address and so it's always going to be about one's personal interpretation regarding the issue and not about following some directive of the Scriptures. So, like what you like or don't like, but leave it at that. Don't then try to push some man-made agenda that says if songs don't meet your particular criteria, then they aren't proper praise songs.

They are praise songs to God for some aspect of His nature or what He has done and there don't seem to be any rules provided through the Scriptures as to what constitute a valid praise song. So don't just make them up.

Music in fellowships is very often a point of disagreement. Some don't like the more modern songs and some don't particularly like the older songs, but the issue is just personal like and dislikes. The validity of their being worthy praise songs is not the issue.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

mikedsjr · Oct 19, 2015

Here is another song. I want to see if anyone might know the issue I would have here. Some more reformed may figure it out before the Arminians types, only because it's been discussed on the Dividing Line before.

miamited · Oct 19, 2015

mikedsjr said:
Maybe there is a point where I have to just let it be and forget certain aspect I can't stand just to get me through and worship freely. I'm not quite sure I'll be able to bring myself to it 100% of the time. I, like twin, can not sing songs I feel are praising man. I'll change the words up to fit my theology. I can't say I'm Reformed, but my Lutheran bias places me closer to them. I find Lutheranism very freeing, despite many dislike the heavy emphasis on Jesus and his work. Everything in church is worship and praises God. The modern church can't see this.

Hi mike,

You really should be more careful in your sweeping use of generalizations. You wrote: The modern church can't see this.

Friend, the modern church is not some bugaboo that threatens our faith. Just as in the days of yore, there were fellowships that didn't get it and that's exactly the way it is today. Read the letters to the various churches in the Revelation. Jesus talks about some of them not 'getting it' and following after and teaching the wrong things about his Father. However, there are many modern fellowships that do get it. They get it that getting hung up about the music is a worthless endeavor. If a song tells the truth about God, whatever that truth may be, and gives praise to God, whether they actually say the name of God or Jesus, it is a worthy praise song. It doesn't have to only be about the law or the gospel, but can be a praise for any number of the worthy attributes of our God. Remember that the song is being sung to Him and He knows whether you are singing about Him or about allah or mohammad or ghandi or some other man-made god. The Scriptures declare that God knows our heart. They declare that He knows the intentions of a man before he even does anything.

Anyway, all are free to believe and follow whatever seems right to them individually. You seem to be hung up on these non-Scriptural ideas that the radio host is pushing as 'truth'. Maybe you should change who you hold in respect as teachers.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Oct 19, 2015

Ahh, Phillips Craig and Dean. One of my most favorite groups. No, I find that every sentence in that song comes right out of the Scriptures. Their 'Favorite Song of All' just makes my toes tap. However, I respectfully request that you don't label me as Arminian or Calvinist or any other such man-made term to describe what I believe. I'm a born again believer and I believe the Scriptures and the God who caused them to be written. I believe His Son and His Spirit. If you must use labels to describe what others believe you can just label me a born again believer. Thanks.

here's a video of their 72 most popular songs and I enjoy every one of them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

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