Practical Eschatology: What I need to do.

Riberra · Apr 26, 2016

dfw69 said:
I believe the great tribulation is for Israel when Gentiles will rise up against her ... Israel will repent and call out to God for help

We on the other hand must not fall away from the faith ..if we remain true to the faith we will not enter the period known as the day of the lord and the wrath of God ... The wrath of God is pour out on those that have risen up against Israel to scatter her

Paul tell us that there will be a great falling away from the faith during those times and warn us that our gathering unto Jesus will not happen before that the man of sin is revealed.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

dfw69 · Apr 26, 2016

Riberra said:
Paul tell us that there will be a great falling away from the faith during those times and warn us that our gathering unto Jesus will not happen before that the man of sin is revealed.

What is the falling away from the faith? Is it not the belief that Jesus is lord ... Falling away from the faith .. Means to deny Jesus is lord to believe in something else yes Paul warns this will happen

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Then Paul goes on to say that a man of sin will come the son of perdition who will sit in the temple as God ... These things must come to pass before Jesus returns

Riberra · Apr 26, 2016

dfw69 said:
What is the falling away from the faith? Is it not the belief that Jesus is lord ... Falling away from the faith .. Means to deny Jesus is lord to believe in something else yes Paul warns this will happen.

Then Paul goes on to say that a man of sin will come the son of perdition who will sit in the temple as God ... These things must come to pass before Jesus returns

That means that our gathering unto Jesus is tied to His return after these things.We will be there when the man of sin will sit in the temple of God and proclame to be God.

The rapture -caught up together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air- will not happen before the tribulation.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

dfw69 · Apr 26, 2016

Riberra said:
That means that our gathering unto Jesus is tied to His return after these things.We will be there when the man of sin will sit in the temple of God and proclame to be God.

The rapture -caught up together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air- will not happen before the tribulation.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

no that's not correct ... When Jesus returns he will gather the elect who have been scattered by the final antichrist ... When the antichrist sits in the temple .. Israel will flee ....those caught are killed or sold to slavery ...Israel is the elect of God

our gathering is at a different time a different appointed season ..

Paul was retelling the events that would happen in the future.. He is retelling what will take place when Jesus returns to earth to the Thessalonians who were alarmed by events in thier lifetime

Of our specific gathering he said be not shaken or be in fear by those that are telling you the day of Christ was at hand ...let no one deceive you by any means ....

They should have known of the times and season because Paul told them before ... But needed to remind them that our promises are yet future and the day of Christ was not at hand as some taught the church..

Our gathering is refered to here... 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

It is prophecied that Israel will return to the lord .... Not by returning to the law ... But by accepting the new covenant

Riberra · Apr 26, 2016

What Paul said to the Thessalonians 2,000 years ago still apply to those -today- who believe that Jesus can come at any time.Jesus will come and gather us unto himself (rapture) only after these things have come to pass NOT before.There is only one coming of Jesus yet to come.Those who believe that Jesus will come before the tribulation to rapture them out of the Earth to Heaven and that Jesus will return with them after the tribulation are flat wrong and have still not understand Paul's message.

dfw69 · Apr 26, 2016

Riberra said:
What Paul said to the Thessalonians 2,000 years ago still apply to those -today- who believe that Jesus can come at any time.Jesus will come and gather us unto himself (rapture) only after these things have come to pass NOT before.There is only one coming of Jesus yet to come.Those who believe that Jesus will come before the tribulation to rapture them out of the Earth to Heaven and that Jesus will return with them after the tribulation are flat wrong and have still not understand Paul's message.

Keep the faith .. Thanks for your replies peace

Job8 · Apr 26, 2016

Riberra said:
Those who believe that Jesus will come before the tribulation to rapture them out of the Earth to Heaven and that Jesus will return with them after the tribulation are flat wrong and have still not understand Paul's message.

Actually, it's the other way around. The apostle Paul is crystal clear that Christians are not to be occupied with times and seasons, since the Rapture is always IMMINENT. At the same time, those who are unsaved do not understand that sudden destruction will come upon them, and they will not escape.

And Jesus reminded us that that would be similar to the time of Noah, where everyone was at ease, and then the Flood took them all away. Noah's Ark is a type of Christ, and Noah and his family (along with all the other creatures) were safe and secure while judgement came upon the ungodly.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

dfw69 · Apr 26, 2016

Job8 said:
Actually, it's the other way around. The apostle Paul is crystal clear that Christians are not to be occupied with times and seasons, since the Rapture is always IMMINENT. At the same time, those who are unsaved do not understand that sudden destruction will come upon them, and they will not escape.

And Jesus reminded us that that would be similar to the time of Noah, where everyone was at ease, and then the Flood took them all away. Noah's Ark is a type of Christ, and Noah and his family (along with all the other creatures) were safe and secure while judgement came upon the ungodly.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

The last verse seems to suggest an appointed time for our salvation... That there is an appointed time for wrath and an appointed time for our salvation

Riberra · Apr 26, 2016

Job8 said:
Actually, it's the other way around. The apostle Paul is crystal clear that Christians are not to be occupied with times and seasons, since the Rapture is always IMMINENT.

Read the verses below and notice the things that Paul describe who must come before the rapture ie -our gathering unto Jesus.-This is totally opposed to the notion of imminent or at any time....but cannot happen before these things mentioned in 2Th 2:3-4 come to pass.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Job8 · Apr 27, 2016

Riberra said:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What is Paul really saying to the Thessalonians?

Verse 1 -- The Rapture ("our gathering together unto Him") is imminent, BUT HAS NOT OCCURRED.

Verse 2 -- THEREFORE you must not be fearful or troubled, or allow anyone to deceive you into thinking that the Day of the LORD [not Christ] is at hand. Then Paul explains why the Day of the LORD has not occurred.

Verse 3 -- Before the Day of the LORD comes upon this earth two things must happen: (1) there must be an apostasy within Christendom and (2) the Antichrist must be revealed.

This is in response to false teaching in Thessalonica (and probably other churches) that the Day of the LORD had already come (perhaps because of the persecution of Christians). The Day of the LORD is a time of wrath and judgements on the unbelieving and ungodly, and Paul was giving the Thessalonians assurance that they were not subject to that. Chapter 5 goes into more detail.

Riberra · Apr 27, 2016

Job8 said:
What is Paul really saying to the Thessalonians?

Verse 1 -- The Rapture ("our gathering together unto Him") is imminent, BUT HAS NOT OCCURRED.

Verse 2 -- THEREFORE you must not be fearful or troubled, or allow anyone to deceive you into thinking that the Day of the LORD [not Christ] is at hand. Then Paul explains why the Day of the LORD has not occurred.

Reread again
Verse 1;the subject is about the Coming ofJesus and our gathering unto Him = the rapture in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air....

Verse 2;Paul explain that those who believe than that day is at hand ie imminent are wrong.

Verse 3-4;Paul tell them to not be deceived by any means because our gathering unto Jesus -the rapture will not happen UNTILL there come the great apostasy first and that the man of sin is revealed.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Hazrus · Apr 27, 2016

Guys, I don't see how these verses tell us that there will be a rapture at all.

Why doesn't it mean that we are to watch out, for Jesus triumphant return to judge (ie. 2nd coming) is imminent?

Douggg · Apr 29, 2016

Riberra said:
What Paul said to the Thessalonians 2,000 years ago still apply to those -today- who believe that Jesus can come at any time.Jesus will come and gather us unto himself (rapture) only after these things have come to pass NOT before.There is only one coming of Jesus yet to come.Those who believe that Jesus will come before the tribulation to rapture them out of the Earth to Heaven and that Jesus will return with them after the tribulation are flat wrong and have still not understand Paul's message.

Yes, for the rapture, Jesus can come at anytime. Which means the rapture is not tied to any event. My view is the anytime rapture view.

However, for the second coming, the great falling away and revealing of the man of sin must take place first.

okay, let's say the rapture can happen "anytime", Jesus coming for the believers. But let's look at your scenario - if it turns out that the anytime rapture hasn't taken place and the great falling away and revealing of the man of sin takes place - then there is a 3 1/2 year (nominally) window, the rapture could take place in all the way to the second coming at the end of that 3 1/2 year window.

It may turn out like that or it may turn out pre-trib for the rapture. We just can't take the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin - as being a mandatory requirement for the rapture - like it is for the second coming.

Douggg · Apr 30, 2016

Hazrus said:
Guys, I don't see how these verses tell us that there will be a rapture at all.

Why doesn't it mean that we are to watch out, for Jesus triumphant return to judge (ie. 2nd coming) is imminent?

In 2Thessalonians2:1 our gathering together to him is the rapture/resurrection reference.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2thessalonian2 can be understood two ways. One way is that the rapture (the gathering) and the Day of Christ (the Lord) are two separate events. The other way is that the rapture (the gathering) and the Day of the Lord take place at the same time, one event.

The arguments comes down to what do other passages in the bible say - to support which of those two interpretations is correct. Most often 1thess4:13-18 is used to argue that the rapture and the Day of the Lord are two separate events.
However, them who argue the two are one event, argue that the coming in 1thess4:13-18 refers to the Second Coming.

Also is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" in verse 1 referring to Jesus coming for the saints to take them out of the world, or is it referring to the Second Coming? That issue also factors into the two sides of the argument.

If we take a look at the rest of the verses in 2thessalonian2, it doesn't say anything more about our gathering unto him. It just talks about the Day of Christ (the Lord), when all of the bad things happen upon the earth. So it appears to me the gathering unto him and the Day of Christ (the Lord) are two separate events.

Riberra · May 1, 2016

Douggg said:
Yes, for the rapture, Jesus can come at anytime. Which means the rapture is not tied to any event. My view is the anytime rapture view.

However, for the second coming, the great falling away and revealing of the man of sin must take place first.

okay, let's say the rapture can happen "anytime", Jesus coming for the believers. But let's look at your scenario - if it turns out that the anytime rapture hasn't taken place and the great falling away and revealing of the man of sin takes place - then there is a 3 1/2 year (nominally) window, the rapture could take place in all the way to the second coming at the end of that 3 1/2 year window.

It may turn out like that or it may turn out pre-trib for the rapture. We just can't take the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin - as being a mandatory requirement for the rapture - like it is for the second coming.

Paul is clear the rapture ie our caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air is tied to Jesus coming after the things that Paul describe in 2Th 2:3-4 .That explain why all the predictions promoted by the pre-trib /mid -trib crowd -remember the recent tethrad blood moon flop, have all been proven wrong -.

Verse 1;the subject is about the Coming ofJesus and our gathering unto Him = the rapture in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air....

Verse 2;Paul explain that those who believe than that day is at hand ie imminent are wrong.

Verse 3-4;Paul tell them to not be deceived by any means because our gathering unto Jesus -the rapture will not happen UNTILL there come the great apostasy first and that the man of sin is revealed.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Douggg · May 1, 2016

Riberra said:
Verse 1;the subject is about the Coming ofJesus and our gathering unto Him = the rapture in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air....

Verse 2;Paul explain that those who believe than that day is at hand ie imminent are wrong.

I think it says thinking that the Day of Christ being at hand - is wrong, because the Day of Christ (the Lord) depends upon the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.

I think you are reading verse 1 Jesus's coming as (1) being the second coming and (2) the gathering (the rapture/resurrection) as being one event. It could be read that way. But I don't read it that way because Paul doesn't speak about the gathering again when starts talking about the two things that must precede the Day of Christ.

He doesn't say anything like - once the the great falling away takes place and the man of sin revealed - then we will be gathered unto the Lord.

Riberra, Paul said.... 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

What does "now" mean to you? To me, it means after what Paul had just explained.

"what withholdeth" is what? I think Paul is saying the man of sin will not be revealed by his act of going into the temple and claiming to be God - until after the rapture/resurrection. I don't think it makes the rapture/resurrection necessarily pretrib (pre-70th week), but it does appear to me to make the rapture/resurrection at least pre-great tribulation.

Ronald · May 1, 2016

The Great Tribulation should start between now and 2018. 1948 + 70 = 2018. According to King David in Psalm 90:10, a generation is 70 years or so; and since Israel became a nation in 1948, I base it on "this generation shall see all these things come to pass" (Matt. 24). In addition to the events that have happened and are happening in the world now, the stage is being set in the Middle East, the economies of the world are about to tank and immorality has increased and corrupted the best of us over the last 50 years and so Judgment Day is imminent. We have seen better times, especially in America; times when the family was unified, when the country was united and prosperous, when "In God We Trust" meant something to everyone, when marriage was between a man and a woman, abortion illegal, when welfare didn't exist, drugs were rare and everyone was brought up with a work ethic that promised the American dream if you worked hard enough.
What should you do? That's the question and can only be answered for each individual by God's calling. He prepares for us what we should do, whether it is to evangelize, plant seeds, warn people, occupy till He comes or simply just give an answer, a testimony, some guidance to a neighbor that comes into your path with a question or in need of some help.
It's difficult to figure what God wants us to do (that is of course once you've been born again) beyond reading and studying the Bible, learning from a good pastor and attending church year after year, serving, loving one another, etc. I wrote a book about Christianity, I thought that was what God wanted me to do; but it didn't do well and lies dormant, so I'm not sure if it was really His purpose for me. So, it's confusing sometimes and personal, that is, what God wants you to do. 2.3 billion Christians all live different lives with different experiences that all contribute to the Body of Christ in some small way.

Riberra · May 1, 2016

Douggg said:
I think it says thinking that the Day of Christ being at hand - is wrong, because the Day of Christ (the Lord) depends upon the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.

I think you are reading verse 1 Jesus's coming as (1) being the second coming and (2) the gathering (the rapture/resurrection) as being one event. It could be read that way. But I don't read it that way because Paul doesn't speak about the gathering again when starts talking about the two things that must precede the Day of Christ.

He doesn't say anything like - once the the great falling away takes place and the man of sin revealed - then we will be gathered unto the Lord.

The Day that Paul say will not come until there come the great apostasy first and that the man of sin is revealed is the same day that we will see the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Jesus mentioned in verse 1.

Douggg said:
Riberra, Paul said.... 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

What does "now" mean to you? To me, it means after what Paul had just explained.

Paul made it clear than by -now- they know that Jesus cannot come and gather us unto himself at any time ....

Douggg said:
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

"what withholdeth" is what? I think Paul is saying the man of sin will not be revealed by his act of going into the temple and claiming to be God - until after the rapture/resurrection. I don't think it makes the rapture/resurrection necessarily pretrib (pre-70th week), but it does appear to me to make the rapture/resurrection at least pre-great tribulation.

You are saying that the rapture will come before the revealing of the man of sin: as if those that you think that "will" be "raptured" are the /what withholdeth/ that he might be revealed in his time.
- note that in verse 7 Paul is not talking about a group but about a single spiritual entity(he)(Revelation 12:7-11) that will let the man of sin the son of perdition that he might be revealed in his time ...

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Douggg · May 2, 2016

Riberra said:
The Day that Paul say will not come until there come the great apostasy first and that the man of sin is revealed is the same day that we will see the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Jesus mentioned in verse 1.

Paul made it clear than by -now- they know that Jesus cannot come and gather us unto himself at any time ....

You are saying that the rapture will come before the revealing of the man of sin: as if those that you think that "will" be "raptured" are the /what withholdeth/ that he might be revealed in his time.
- note that in verse 7 Paul is not talking about a group but about a single spiritual entity(he)(Revelation 12:7-11) that will let the man of sin the son of perdition that he might be revealed in his time ...

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Riberra said:
Paul made it clear than by -now- they know that Jesus cannot come and gather us unto himself at any time ....

Is that what that verse containing the "now" actually says in text? Let's look.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Okay, it is not talking about the gathering in that verse 6, but about the man of sin being revealed. So I think you might want to look at that verse again.

You are saying that the rapture will come before the revealing of the man of sin: as if those that you think that "will" be "raptured" are the /what withholdeth/ that he might be revealed in his time.

Well, what I am saying is that the rapture/resurrection will take place before the specific act of the man of sin going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God, happens.

The "what' that withholdeth is just Paul's way of saying that the man of sin's act will not take place until after rapture/resurrection takes place. The Day of the Lord basically begins when the man of sin commits the act. Which is going to be a time of big troubles.

- note that in verse 7 Paul is not talking about a group but about a single spiritual entity(he)(Revelation 12:7-11) that will let the man of sin the son of perdition that he might be revealed in his time ...

Riberia, I will explain that verse as the Lord has revealed to me.

One of the last things Jesus said to the disciples....

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Nothing happens unless the Lord Jesus Christ allows it to happen, as all power has been given to him in heaven and in earth. The He who now letteth is the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is he who lets the man of sin be revealed.....

But not until he - the body of Christ - is taken out of the way, which is "the what" in verse 6.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Riberra · May 2, 2016

Douggg said:
Is that what that verse containing the "now" actually says in text? Let's look.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Okay, it is not talking about the gathering in that verse 6, but about the man of sin being revealed. So I think you might want to look at that verse again.

Thats right ,Paul is repeating to them for the second time that the man of sin will be revealed before than the gathering unto Jesus happen....which is the whole subject of the chapter ---the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto him .

Douggg said:
Well, what I am saying is that the rapture/resurrection will take place before the specific act of the man of sin going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God, happens.The "what' that withholdeth is just Paul's way of saying that the man of sin's act will not take place until after rapture/resurrection takes place.
'http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Thessalonians-2-6

What you are saying is the exact opposite of what Paul wrote.

2 Thessalonians 2

Douggg said:
2 Thessalonians2:6
The Day of the Lord basically begins when the man of sin commits the act. Which is going to be a time of big troubles.

The Day of the Lord COMING is not the great tribulation see Matthew 24:29-31

Douggg said:
Riberia, I will explain that verse as the Lord has revealed to me.

One of the last things Jesus said to the disciples....

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Nothing happens unless the Lord Jesus Christ allows it to happen, as all power has been given to him in heaven and in earth. The He who now letteth is the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is he who lets the man of sin be revealed.....
[/URL]

Of course nothing happens unless the Lord Jesus Christ allows it to happen ...that is why the man of sin will be revealed in the time that God will decide....

Douggg said:
But not until he - the body of Christ - is taken out of the way, which is "the what" in verse 6.
[URL='http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Thessalonians-2-6/']6

Douggg said:
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

If you believe that -he- is the church and that the church will be removed out of the Earth to Heaven where God reside before that the man of sin is revealed you are wrong.[/URL]

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