Practical Eschatology: What I need to do.

stephen583 · Apr 10, 2016

(1). Detractors always point out that many predictions about the impending Apocalypse have been made in the past, and they always turned out to be wrong. What skeptics fail to realize, is that these predictions weren't so much wrong, as they were premature. I can state prematurely, that if you keep driving your car without fixing a leak in your break line, eventually you're going to crash your car. My statement is premature, but not necessarily wrong.

Bible prophecy is often fulfilled in "preparatory" and "consummate" stages. The preparatory fulfillment is like a warning which "foreshadows" what is to come. Sometimes the preparatory and consummate fulfillment of a prophecy can be separated by months, years, or even thousands of years. Remember, God doesn't reckon time the way we do. A thousand years, or fifty years the way we reckon time, means absolutely nothing to God. It's literally the blink of an eye, (2 Peter 3:8).

(2). So before you listen to the detractors about the timing of the impending Apocalypse, I would caution you to keep 2 Peter 3:8 in mind and BELIEVE. Personally, I don't think you would have opened this thread, were it not for the fact the Holy Spirit has already told you, "the time is at hand".

dfw69 · Apr 16, 2016

Riberra said:
Maybe you should ask dfw69 to show you a Bible verse saying that Jesus have promised a removal out of the Earth for the believers still alive and a 7 years stay in Heaven during the Tribulation.

No one knows how long the stay in heaven will be ... It may be a lot longer than 7 years depends when the invitation to heaven takes place

John 17
14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one

John 17:24 Jesus also requested his followers will be where he is so that his followers will behold his glory... He sits at the right hand of God now... If the rapture takes place we will behold his glory in heaven as witnesses

Jesus prayed his followers would be protected from the evil one ...ie Satan ... Most of the disciples were killed ... Seems like a failed prophecy are enemies would say ... But Jesus was not referring to tribulation which he predicted would come ... But that he would not loose those who believed in him.. Jesus will resurrect his followers and saved them because his followers kept the faith ...he has the victory over the evil one

Riberra · Apr 23, 2016

dfw69 said:
No one knows how long the stay in heaven will be ... It may be a lot longer than 7 years depends when the invitation to heaven takes place

I have asked you to show the Bible verses -specifically saying in the text- that there will be a removal of the believers still alive out of the Earth to Heaven .All you come up with is your wishful thinking without a scripture to back it .

dfw69 said:
John 17:24 Jesus also requested his followers will be where he is so that his followers will behold his glory... He sits at the right hand of God now... If the rapture takes place we will behold his glory in heaven as witnesses

Jesus have never make the promise to remove the believers still alive out of the earth to Heaven before any tribulation small or great.

dfw69 said:
Jesus prayed his followers would be protected from the evil one ...ie Satan ... Most of the disciples were killed ... Seems like a failed prophecy are enemies would say ... But Jesus was not referring to tribulation which he predicted would come ... But that he would not loose those who believed in him.. Jesus will resurrect his followers and saved them because his followers kept the faith ...he has the victory over the evil one

Exactly,the promise that Jesus have made is that He will resurrect the believers unto His Second Coming AFTER the Great Tribulation......

dfw69 · Apr 23, 2016

Riberra said:
I have asked you to show the Bible verses -specifically saying in the text- that there will be a removal of the believers still alive out of the Earth to Heaven .All you come up with is your wishful thinking without a scripture to back it .

If you don't see the reality of the rapture to heaven by now you probably never will until that day happens ... We all have seen and heard the evidence but we choose to believe what we believe ..And when it does happen will you humble yourself to accept his invitation if it happens in our lifetime or conform to the ways of this world ... The choice is yours to make ... I've already made my decision ...

Jesus have never make the promise to remove the believers still alive out of the earth to Heaven before any tribulation small or great.

Will see ..won't we ?

]Exactly,the promise that Jesus have made is that He will resurrect the believers unto His Second Coming AFTER the Great Tribulation......

if you believe Jesus is coming to earth soon after this next coming tribulation you will be heading for a false messianic age where those who have even a little faith in Jesus will be tested by Judaism and the law ...Judaism will rise like leaven for a season until the wrath of God is pour out for trampling the new covenant underfoot ...

Riberra · Apr 23, 2016

dfw69 said:
if you believe Jesus is coming to earth soon after this next coming tribulation you will be heading for a false messianic age where those who have even a little faith in Jesus will be tested by Judaism and the law ...Judaism will rise like leaven for a season until the wrath of God is pour out for trampling the new covenant underfoot ...

I know that the man of sin who will pretend to be the Messiah heading a false messianic age must come before the return of Jesus ....and i know as a Christian that the Scripture tell us that we will have to stand firm in our faith in Jesus against that false messiah.You on the other hand believe firmly that there will be an easy way out !

dfw69 · Apr 23, 2016

Riberra said:
I know that the man of sin who will pretend to be the Messiah heading a false messianic age must come before the return of Jesus ....and i know as a Christian that the Scripture tell us that we will have to stand firm in our faith in Jesus against that false messiah.You on the other hand believe firmly that there will be an easy way out !

No I believe God is able to rescue his people like he did many times in the scriptures

If the rapture does not happen within our lifetime and a tribulation does happenI will continue to keep the faith in Jesus and be prepared to die for my faith in him ... I have made my choice to not save myself to follow after the law and the false messianic age to come

Riberra · Apr 23, 2016

double post

Riberra · Apr 23, 2016

dfw69 said:
If you don't see the reality of the rapture to heaven by now you probably never will until that day happens ... We all have seen and heard the evidence but we choose to believe what we believe ..And when it does happen will you humble yourself to accept his invitation if it happens in our lifetime or conform to the ways of this world ... The choice is yours to make ... I've already made my decision ...

What evidence,you have still NOT provided any verses saying that there will be a removal out of the Earth to Heaven before the tribulation ?

dfw69 · Apr 23, 2016

Riberra said:
What evidence,you have still NOT provided any verses saying that there will be a removal out of the Earth to Heaven before the tribulation ?

You already have heard the verses but you spiritualized them away for an earthly kingdom ... let's not go there it's an endless circle

dfw69 · Apr 23, 2016

Riberra said:
I know that the man of sin who will pretend to be the Messiah heading a false messianic age must come before the return of Jesus ....and i know as a Christian that the Scripture tell us that we will have to stand firm in our faith in Jesus against that false messiah.You on the other hand believe firmly that there will be an easy way out !

I have not been fair with you Riberra .. I will answer a few questions since you inquired of me...

i believe that Jesus will resurrect his Firstfruits the church before the tribulation to give us the promises of the kingdom of heaven ... It is also a rescue from the wrath to come to hide us from the wickedness of the world

You want a rapture verse ? Here it is Bro ..

John 14

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled.You believe in God[a]; believe also in me.2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus was about to die for our sins ...and he knew he would rise again on Firstfruits and told them the future before it took place...he is telling his followers of his fathers house ... Which is in heaven has many rooms ... He tells them he was going back to heaven soon to prepare a place in new Jerusalem for his followers

Then he promises to return back again from his fathers house to take us back to his fathers house where he was before so that we may be with him there to recieve the place he has prepared for us ...so that we may also be with him where he was going....and we know the way to the fathers house .. by faith in Jesus righteousness for us

It's a picture of a Jewish wedding ... Jesus betrothal to his followers by covenant ... Leaves to his fathers house in heaven to prepare a place in the holy city of new Jerusalem ...returns to his followers on a specific feast day to take them back to his fathers house ....where we meet his father face to face ... We are his body by covenant ... His father becomes our father by covenant

Riberra · Apr 23, 2016

dfw69 said:
I have not been fair with you Riberra .. I will answer a few questions since you inquired of me...

Thanks,finally something to analyze.

dfw69 said:
i believe that Jesus will resurrect his Firstfruits the church before the tribulation to give us the promises of the kingdom of heaven ... It is also a rescue from the wrath to come to hide us from the wickedness of the world

The Firstfruits was Jesus, then those that sleep/died in Christ will be resurrected at His Coming AFTER the Tribulation.

When Jesus will come back on the Earth that will be to establish His Earthly Kingdom with His Saints resurrected and those still alive unto His Coming...Jesus will not return back to Heaven with us.We will always be with Jesus here on the Earth.

dfw69 said:
You want a rapture verse ? Here it is Bro ..

John 14

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled.You believe in God[a]; believe also in me.2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus was about to die for our sins ...and he knew he would rise again on Firstfruits and told them the future before it took place...he is telling his followers of his fathers house ... Which is in heaven has many rooms ... He tells them he was going back to heaven soon to prepare a place in new Jerusalem for his followers

Then he promises to return back again from his fathers house to take us back to his fathers house where he was before so that we may be with him there to recieve the place he has prepared for us ...so that we may also be with him where he was going....and we know the way to the fathers house .. by faith in Jesus righteousness for us

It's a picture of a Jewish wedding ... Jesus betrothal to his followers by covenant ... Leaves to his fathers house in heaven to prepare a place in the holy city of new Jerusalem ...returns to his followers on a specific feast day to take them back to his fathers house ....where we meet his father face to face ... We are his body by covenant ... His father becomes our father by covenant

That is not a picture of a Jewish wedding....Jesus promised to take the souls of the dead believers to Heaven during His resurrection and ascension to Heaven,...because before Jesus ' resurrection / the place that the souls of the dead believers where going was Abraham's bosom....located at the same place that Sheol/Hell.

1 Peter 3:18-19

18- For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 -By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

21- The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22- Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

dfw69 · Apr 24, 2016

Riberra said:
Thanks,finally something to analyze.

The Firstfruits was Jesus, then those that sleep/died in Christ will be resurrected at His Coming AFTER the Tribulation.

We are also his Firstfruits we have not yet pass over from death to eternal life

There will be another resurrection of saints that have been slain after the tribulation and those alive that have been scattered will be gathered to the promise land

When Jesus will come back on the Earth that will be to establish His Earthly Kingdom with His Saints resurrected and those still alive unto His Coming...Jesus will not return back to Heaven with us.We will always be with Jesus here on the Earth.

If you truly love Jesus then you will see that is not true ..his Firstfruits will go to heaven .. But Those whose eyes will be opened to recieve the new covenant after the rapture will die and be resurrected at the end of the tribulation

That is not a picture of a Jewish wedding..

Sure it is ...

Jesus promised to take the souls of the dead believers to Heaven during His resurrection and ascension to Heaven,...because before Jesus ' resurrection.... the place that the souls of the dead believers where going was Abraham's bosom....located at the same place that Sheol/Hell.

True he arose the Old Testament saints ... but where does it say they arose to heaven with him?.... Where are the witnesses to that fact ... We don't know if they ascended with him unless I'm missing something ...they appeared to many on earth but we can only assume they went to heaven they may have died again having not received the promises yet ... But even if they did ascend to heaven being the Firstfruits ... We too are Firstfruits for many have died since the birth of the new covenant and have not yet received the promises

James 1:18 Romans 8:23

Riberra · Apr 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
We are also his Firstfruits we have not yet pass over from death to eternal life

There will be another resurrection of saints that have been slain after the tribulation and those alive that have been scattered will be gathered to the promise land

There will be only one resurrection of ALL the Saints to eternal life unto Jesus Second Coming after the Tribulation.The believers alive and remain at that moment will be changed into immortality as well.

dfw69 said:
If you truly love Jesus then you will see that is not true ..his Firstfruits will go to heaven .. But Those whose eyes will be opened to recieve the new covenant after the rapture will die and be resurrected at the end of the tribulation

Jesus' plan is to establish His Kingdom on the Earth and reign on the Earth with His Saints. When a believer die his soul goes to Heaven waiting for the resurrection.

dfw69 said:
Sure it is ...

A body trip while still alive for a 7 years marriage feast in Heaven exist only in the imagination of the pre-tribbers.We will meet Jesus only Unto His coming after the Tribulation that will be the marriage >we will forever be with Jesus in His Earthly Kingdom.

dfw69 said:
True he arose the Old Testament saints ... but where does it say they arose to heaven with him?.... Where are the witnesses to that fact ... We don't know if they ascended with him unless I'm missing something ...they appeared to many on earth but we can only assume they went to heaven they may have died again having not received the promises yet ... But even if they did ascend to heaven being the Firstfruits ... We too are Firstfruits for many have died since the birth of the new covenant and have not yet received the promises

I have not said that they have gone bodily to Heaven but their souls ...

dfw69 · Apr 24, 2016

Riberra said:
There will be only one resurrection of ALL the Saints unto Jesus Second Coming.

Will see..

Jesus plan is to establish His Kingdom on the Earth and reign on the Earth with His Saints.

for only 1000 years ...

A body trip while still alive for a 7 years marriage feast in Heaven exist only in the imagination of the pre-tribbers.We will meet Jesus only Unto His coming after the Tribulation that will be the marriage >we will forever be with Jesus in His Earthly Kingdom.

Actually it could be a lot longer than 7 years ... Perhaps 450 years in heaven if my interpretation of the counting of the Omer is correct...

I have not said that they have gone bodily to Heaven but their souls ...

How do souls appear to many in Jerusalem ?... Did God send them ghost ?... I don't think so

Riberra · Apr 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
Will see..
for only 1000 years ...

Forever...Revelation 21 ---Revelation 22

dfw69 said:
Actually it could be a lot longer than 7 years ... Perhaps 450 years in heaven if my interpretation of the counting of the Omer is correct...

Which Omer... >Homer Simpson ?

dfw69 said:
How do souls appear to many in Jerusalem ?... Did God send them ghost ?... I don't think so

There was effectively report of some OT saints buried in Jerusalem who were bodily resurrected which we don't know what have happened to them after that ....What do you believe have happened to their souls after that they "re"-died ?

dfw69 · Apr 24, 2016

Riberra said:
Forever...Revelation 21 ---Revelation 22

After the 1000 years .. Yes forever

Which Omer... >Homer Simpson ?

Lol no the gap between Passover and Pentecost of the Jewish feast

There was effectively report of some OT saints buried in Jerusalem who were bodily resurrected which we don't know what have happened to them after that ....what do you believe have happened to their souls after that they "re"-died ?

Their souls went to heaven of course and they await thier resurrection ... But its also possible they have recieved their new bodies ... And it's possible they have been resurrected and not recieved their new bodies yet but ascended to heaven as Enoch and Elijah did ...It does not say

stephen583 · Apr 24, 2016

dfw69 said:
No I believe God is able to rescue his people like he did many times in the scriptures

Precisely. And lets take a look at exactly what did happen during these earlier incidents of deliverance in the Bible. Noah and his family were not removed away from the descendants of Cain before the flood. Noah and his family were "segregated" within the ark from those God was about to destroy.. but they weren't entirely removed from what was about to happen. They rode out the flood, while the wicked perished and drowned all around them. Noah, his family and all the creatures in the ark were kept safe, in the midst of all that death and destruction.

What about Moses and the Exodus story ?! Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt.. He goes up on the mountain to receive the Commandments of God, and when he comes down, some of them have built a golden calf as an idol and are worshipping it. Again, obviously, the righteous were not removed from among the unrighteous before the Exodus began.

The Israelites had to wander in the desert for forty years, while the transgressors among them were purged from their midst. Even Moses himself, because he doubted God, wasn't permitted to enter the Promised land.

The parable of the wheat and the tares says the same thing. The tares are gathered up first from among the wheat and burned. It doesn't say the wheat is gathered first and removed from the field before the tares are dealt with. This parable which describes the harvest at the end of the age is obviously a direct contradiction to the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Before deliverance and salvation comes from God, there must first come trial, testing, refinement and purification of those whom God would save. Deliverance means protection from bodily harm. It does not mean removal from the world. It's true what they say. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. There is no FREE lunch.

"My prayer is not that you REMOVE them from the world, but that you protect them from the evil one" (John 17:15, NIV).

I'm afraid Riberra it's not going to be as simple or easy as just being a good Christian and waiting for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to occur. Just because an idea is popular with the masses, doesn't make it right, or scriptural.

dfw69 · Apr 24, 2016

stephen583 said:
Precisely. And lets take a look at exactly what did happen during these earlier incidents of deliverance in the Bible. Noah and his family were not removed away from the descendants of Cain before the flood. Noah and his family were "segregated" within the ark from those God was about to destroy.. but they weren't entirely removed from what was about to happen. They rode out the flood, while the wicked perished and drowned all around them. Noah, his family and all the creatures in the ark were kept safe, in the midst of all that death and destruction.

What about Moses and the Exodus story ?! Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt.. He goes up on the mountain to receive the Commandments of God, and when he comes down, some of them have built a golden calf as an idol and are worshipping it. Again, obviously, the righteous were not removed from among the unrighteous before the Exodus began.

The Israelites had to wander in the desert for forty years, while the transgressors among them were purged from their midst. Even Moses himself, because he doubted God, wasn't permitted to enter the Promised land.

The parable of the wheat and the tares says the same thing. The tares are gathered up first from among the wheat and burned. It doesn't say the wheat is gathered first and removed from the field before the tares are dealt with. This parable which describes the harvest at the end of the age is obviously a direct contradiction to the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Before deliverance and salvation comes from God, there must first come trial, testing, refinement and purification of those whom God would save. Deliverance means protection from bodily harm. It does not mean removal from the world. It's true what they say. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. There is no FREE lunch.

"My prayer is not that you REMOVE them from the world, but that you protect them from the evil one" (John 17:15, NIV).

I'm afraid Riberra it's not going to be as simple or easy as just being a good Christian and waiting for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to occur. Just because an idea is popular with the masses, doesn't make it right, or scriptural.

I believe all those instances where God saved his people were a type an shadow of better things to come

Like gathering us to mt Zion in heaven... To the promise land .. Only we are promised a heavenly city new Jerusalem

Riberra · Apr 26, 2016

dfw69 said:
I believe all those instances where God saved his people were a type an shadow of better things to come

Like gathering us to mt Zion in heaven... To the promise land .. Only we are promised a heavenly city new Jerusalem

If you read the whole John 14 chapter in context ,not just the 3 first verses you will notice that:

Jesus only promised 2,000 years ago that the only way to see the father is to believe in Him.The rewards -resurrection ,reign with Him on the Earth -will come with his return...And later after the milennium God will descend on the Earth with New Jesusalem to live with us forever here on the new -regenerated- Earth (Revelation 21---Revelation 22).

That is not a promise that the believers in a far distant future will be taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the great tribulation.

-In other words Revelation 21 and Revelation 22 tell us clearly that
we will have to wait utill the end of the millennium after the great white throne judgment -when the New Jerusalem will descend on Earth before entering in it as a reward.

Revelation 21:7-8
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sorry to take you back to reality!

dfw69 · Apr 26, 2016

Riberra said:
If you read the whole John 14 chapter in context ,not just the 3 first verses you will notice that:

Jesus only promised 2,000 years ago that the only way to see the father is to believe in Him.The rewards -resurrection ,reign with Him on the Earth -will come with his return...And later after the milennium God will descend on the Earth with New Jesusalem to live with us forever here on the new -regenerated- Earth (Revelation 21---Revelation 22).

That is not a promise that the believers in a far distant future will be taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the great tribulation.

-In other words Revelation 21 and Revelation 22 tell us clearly that
we will have to wait utill the end of the millennium when the New Jerusalem will descend on Earth before entering in it as a reward.

I believe the great tribulation is for Israel when Gentiles will rise up against her ... Israel will repent and call out to God for help

We on the other hand must not fall away from the faith ..if we remain true to the faith we will not enter the period known as the day of the lord and the wrath of God ... The wrath of God is pour out on those that have risen up against Israel to scatter her

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