Postmillennialism

[Timtofly]

What in the world are you talking about here? You're not a preterist, so why are you talking about the apostles teaching that Christ's second coming was literally going to happen soon? Did you become a preterist without me realizing it or are you not really thinking very carefully about what you're saying here?

The poster claimed the Apostles were Amil. They had expectations. Does not mean they were preterist, either.

The Apostles obeyed God. That is what today's church should be doing. Not labeling the past as if posters could determine the minds of any other human besides their own.

 

[Timtofly]

So, let's just think about the Israelites then. Has Jesus failed to save His people among the Israelites from their sins? No. So, everything I've said still applies whether we include Gentiles in the conversation or not.

In one way yes. According to Daniel 9:24, no. But then Jesus saved all of Adam's dead flesh, not just one ethnicity even before creation. That is the "saved" you are talking about.

Israel is still a descendant of Adam.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In one way yes.

This is just unbelievable. I asked you if He failed and you're saying yes. Doesn't matter that you're saying "in one way". He didn't fail in any way, shape or form. Ever. How can you even say He failed in any way?

 

[Timtofly]

This is just unbelievable. I asked you if He failed and you're saying yes. Doesn't matter that you're saying "in one way". He didn't fail in any way, shape or form. Ever. How can you even say He failed in any way?

I was not answering your question.

You already answered your own question.

I was responding to this:

So, everything I've said still applies whether we include Gentiles in the conversation or not.

No, what you said does not apply whether we include Gentiles or not.

 

[JM]

Onward, Christian soldiers,
marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
leads against the foe;
Forward into battle,
see his banner go!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I was not answering your question.

You already answered your own question.

Then you should have made that clear. To say "in one way yes" after I had asked you a question that only required a yes or no answer naturally led me to believe that your response was your answer to my question.

 

[JM]

"the gates of hell shall not prevail..." refers to Jesus telling His listeners that He is going to take Satan's Kingdom, He (Jesus) is going to storm the gates of Hell which cannot withstand his assault. Christ did this which is why we confess "he descended to the dead" in the early creeds. Caesarea Philippi was formerly known as Banias/Panias is translated as the Grotto of Pan and is also associated with Baal god of the underworld. Satan's name Beelzebul is a direct references to Baal, together meaning prince of death, demons, lord of flies/pests that feast on excrement. Christ is saying Satan's Kingdom is finished, it's over, the Kingdom of God will grow slowly like a mustard seed, like leaven, like a little rock from Daniel and consume the world.

Christ is reversing death now, amen? He stormed the gates of Hell and is now actively reversing the order of sin and death. Are there more Christians in the world now? Yes. Have things generally gotten better around the world since the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Christ? Absolutely. God rules....we are winning because He has already won.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

Still a work in progress but check out this chart I made.

Postmillennialism Chart

 

[rwb]

"the gates of hell shall not prevail..." refers to Jesus telling His listeners that He is going to take Satan's Kingdom, He (Jesus) is going to storm the gates of Hell which cannot withstand his assault. Christ did this which is why we confess "he descended to the dead" in the early creeds. Caesarea Philippi was formerly known as Banias/Panias is translated as the Grotto of Pan and is also associated with Baal god of the underworld. Satan's name Beelzebul is a direct references to Baal, together meaning prince of death, demons, lord of flies/pests that feast on excrement. Christ is saying Satan's Kingdom is finished, it's over, the Kingdom of God will grow slowly like a mustard seed, like leaven, like a little rock from Daniel and consume the world.

Christ is reversing death now, amen? He stormed the gates of Hell and is now actively reversing the order of sin and death. Are there more Christians in the world now? Yes. Have things generally gotten better around the world since the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Christ? Absolutely. God rules....we are winning because He has already won.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

There is nothing you say here that I would not agree with. However you don't deal with the last day when the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev 10) or Satan's "little season" (Rev 20). Since time, this time we are living through, that began with the first advent of Christ has an end. It will end when the Kingdom of heaven, being built during this time is complete. But then Satan has a little season before Christ returns on the last day. Since the Kingdom is complete, and time for building the Kingdom finished what would be the purpose for another literal thousand years of more time on earth?

 

[JM]

There is nothing you say here that I would not agree with. However you don't deal with the last day when the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev 10) or Satan's "little season" (Rev 20). Since time, this time we are living through, that began with the first advent of Christ has an end. It will end when the Kingdom of heaven, being built during this time is complete. But then Satan has a little season before Christ returns on the last day. Since the Kingdom is complete, and time for building the Kingdom finished what would be the purpose for another literal thousand years of more time on earth?

The "little season" is on the chart I posted which shows the Kingdom is not complete but growing, spreading over the entire world. You are too focused on taking a small portion literalistically and by that I'm saying you are forcing scripture to fit into your theological framework.

 

[rwb]

The "little season" is on the chart I posted which shows the Kingdom is not complete but growing, spreading over the entire world. You are too focused on taking a small portion literalistically and by that I'm saying you are forcing scripture to fit into your theological framework.

So, time ending when the seventh trumpet begins to sound in Rev 10 isn't really ending at all? You can say anything you wish but saying what you believe is not proving what you believe is biblical.

What is your understanding of the mystery of God that is finished when "there should be time no longer"? What time is no longer, if not the time likened to a thousand years for building the Kingdom during this age? And why does it say the angel sounds "in the days" rather then in the day?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If mortality of the body is changed to immortality and incorruption at the last trumpet how will anymore be saved since the mystery of God declared to His prophets is finished?

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[JM]

So, time ending when the seventh trumpet begins to sound in Rev 10 isn't really ending at all? You can say anything you wish but saying what you believe is not proving what you believe is biblical.

What is your understanding of the mystery of God that is finished when "there should be time no longer"? What time is no longer, if not the time likened to a thousand years for building the Kingdom during this age? And why does it say the angel sounds "in the days" rather then in the day?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

that there shall be delay no longer ASV

that there would be no more delay ESV

There will be no more delay! LEB

that time was up TMB

that there should be delay no longer NKJV

We see that in context the mystery was revealed not that time was ending but there would be no more delays to the revelation of the mystery. What is the mystery?

“This ‘Mystery’ is a major aspect of the letters to the Ephesians and Colossians: the union of believing Jews and Gentiles in one church, without distinction” (David Chilton, p. 208).

“The completion of the mystery of God (v. 7) refers to the fact that the ‘predominantly Jewish nature of the church was to be ended by the destruction of the temple, the distinctive feature in which it centered.’ The mystery itself, of course, is… ‘that the Gentiles should come into the church on an equal footing with the Jews, not first having to become Jews themselves…’” (Jay Adams, p. 208).

Revelation 11:15-19 we see the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

It was clear that John knew he was in the Kingdom when he wrote Revelation, “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

I write all this to say Revelation is about the judgement of unbelieving Israel, it was the covenant courses God promised he would deal out to Israel if they continued to break and the covenant and they did. (Eze. 20) That is also why Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

"Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us."

Jesus told the daughters of Jerusalem to weep for themselves because judgement was coming and coming soon and Judaism was destroyed along with the Temple in 70 ad.

If mortality of the body is changed to immortality and incorruption at the last trumpet how will anymore be saved since the mystery of God declared to His prophets is finished?

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Your point can only be made if the Seventh Trumpet is the same as the Last Trump. Notice, it’s the Last Trump not last of the Trumpets, I see no reason to link the Last Trump which changes believers bodies and resurrects the dead with the judgment of Revelation which is the wrath of God upon unbelievers.

Jesus's Kingdom is now, "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Yours in the Lord.

 

[rwb]

that there shall be delay no longer ASV

that there would be no more delay ESV

There will be no more delay! LEB

that time was up TMB

that there should be delay no longer NKJV

We see that in context the mystery was revealed not that time was ending but there would be no more delays to the revelation of the mystery. What is the mystery?

“This ‘Mystery’ is a major aspect of the letters to the Ephesians and Colossians: the union of believing Jews and Gentiles in one church, without distinction” (David Chilton, p. 208).

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Whether its time shall be no longer, or there shall be no more delay makes no difference. Because the mystery of God is not delayed but finished. The mystery, I agree is through the proclamation of the Gospel the Kingdom of heaven is complete being filled with humankind which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people.

“The completion of the mystery of God (v. 7) refers to the fact that the ‘predominantly Jewish nature of the church was to be ended by the destruction of the temple, the distinctive feature in which it centered.’ The mystery itself, of course, is… ‘that the Gentiles should come into the church on an equal footing with the Jews, not first having to become Jews themselves…’” (Jay Adams, p. 208).

Revelation 11:15-19 we see the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

The seventh trumpet does not signify the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It signifies the kingdom of the earth becoming the kingdoms of our Lord when the seventh trumpet sounds time shall be no longer, or there shall be no more delay. When we read the context of Rev 11 the seventh angel begins to sound after the two witnesses for Christ have finished their testimony and been killed.

When we return to Rev 10 we find who the witnesses will prophesy before.

Revelation 10:11 (KJV) And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

70 AD has no bearing on this prophesy of when the seventh angel begins to sound.

It was clear that John knew he was in the Kingdom when he wrote Revelation, “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

I write all this to say Revelation is about the judgement of unbelieving Israel, it was the covenant courses God promised he would deal out to Israel if they continued to break and the covenant and they did. (Eze. 20) That is also why Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

If this were true why would John be instructed to send these letters to predominantly Gentile churches?

Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us."

Jesus told the daughters of Jerusalem to weep for themselves because judgement was coming and coming soon and Judaism was destroyed along with the Temple in 70 ad.

If this were true, why would John be instructed to send these letters to predominantly Gentile churches about keeping the faith, and holding fast to all that is written in the book?

Your point can only be made if the Seventh Trumpet is the same as the Last Trump. Notice, it’s the Last Trump not last of the Trumpets, I see no reason to link the Last Trump which changes believers bodies and resurrects the dead with the judgment of Revelation which is the wrath of God upon unbelievers.

How many seventh/last trumpets/trumps do you find in the Revelation? Wouldn't there have to be more than seven angels if trump/trumpets are not speaking of those the angels sound?

Revelation 8:2 (KJV) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:6 (KJV) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 8:7-8 (KJV) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 8:10 (KJV) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Revelation 8:12 (KJV) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 9:1 (KJV) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9:13 (KJV) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The witnesses for Christ have finished their mission of taking the Gospel to all the nations of the earth. They are killed and after 3 and 1/2 days then they were called to life through His Spirit and called to come up to heaven. I view this as the time when the saints are caught up to be with the Lord in heaven just before God sends down fire from heaven to destroy the earth and everything still alive on it.

Jesus's Kingdom is now, "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Yours in the Lord.

With this I agree. The Kingdom is now, and we enter into His Kingdom when we are born again of His Spirit in us. His Kingdom NOW in this age is without observation in this world, because the Kingdom now in this age is NOT of this world, because it is within believers.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Kingdom of God in this age is not physical, but spiritual, that's why the only way we can see or enter it is to be born again of the Spirit. The Kingdom will not be physical is this world, but will come down from heaven to be physical on the new earth after the first heaven and first earth have passed away, where there will be no more tears, suffering, dying, or sin. The new earth will be inhabited only by immortality and incorruption.

Many Blessings

 

[JM]

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Whether its time shall be no longer, or there shall be no more delay makes no difference. Because the mystery of God is not delayed but finished. The mystery, I agree is through the proclamation of the Gospel the Kingdom of heaven is complete being filled with humankind which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people.



The seventh trumpet does not signify the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It signifies the kingdom of the earth becoming the kingdoms of our Lord when the seventh trumpet sounds time shall be no longer, or there shall be no more delay. When we read the context of Rev 11 the seventh angel begins to sound after the two witnesses for Christ have finished their testimony and been killed.

When we return to Rev 10 we find who the witnesses will prophesy before.

Revelation 10:11 (KJV) And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

70 AD has no bearing on this prophesy of when the seventh angel begins to sound.



If this were true, why would John be instructed to send these letters to predominantly Gentile churches about keeping the faith, and holding fast to all that is written in the book?



How many seventh/last trumpets/trumps do you find in the Revelation? Wouldn't there have to be more than seven angels if trump/trumpets are not speaking of those the angels sound?

Revelation 8:2 (KJV) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:6 (KJV) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 8:7-8 (KJV) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 8:10 (KJV) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Revelation 8:12 (KJV) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 9:1 (KJV) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9:13 (KJV) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The witnesses for Christ have finished their mission of taking the Gospel to all the nations of the earth. They are killed and after 3 and 1/2 days then they were called to life through His Spirit and called to come up to heaven. I view this as the time when the saints are caught up to be with the Lord in heaven just before God sends down fire from heaven to destroy the earth and everything still alive on it.



With this I agree. The Kingdom is now, and we enter into His Kingdom when we are born again of His Spirit in us. His Kingdom NOW in this age is without observation in this world, because the Kingdom now in this age is NOT of this world, because it is within believers.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Kingdom of God in this age is not physical, but spiritual, that's why the only way we can see or enter it is to be born again of the Spirit. The Kingdom will not be physical is this world, but will come down from heaven to be physical on the new earth after the first heaven and first earth have passed away, where there will be no more tears, suffering, dying, or sin. The new earth will be inhabited only by immortality and incorruption.

Many Blessings

Thank you for the back and forth I just don't have time for a long convo. I tend to "post and ghost." I promise you that if you spend time watching the videos your questions will be answered even if you still disagree with the conclusion us Postmiller's have come to.

If you honestly and truly seek a Postmillennial perspective the answers are all found in the original post.

Happy Lord's Day!

jm