Post-Tribulation vs. Pre-Tribulation.

I"m post trib.

I am determined to know nothing about anything except Christ and his crucifixion.

When it all happens, then it happens. Getting all uptight about it won't make it happen any faster or slower, and I can't imagine that we'll want to spend any time in the New Jerusalem saying, "I told you so."

Amen.

Tim LaHaye, Gary DeMar, and all those folks can say when this rapture will be, but does it really matter what we believe eschatologically?

I see. So anyone wanting to discuss this section of scripture is "all uptight". Maybe we are only allowed to discuss certain verses in the Bible.
Actually, no one is forced to participate in this thread. I don't see any reason to go to threads you don't want to participate in, & insult the ones who do.
Maybe the Holy Spirit should have left this part out of the Bible, according to who?
Why don't you complain to the owner & have this "END TIME PROPHECY FORUM" removed if you object to it so much?

Read "Are We Living In The End Times" by Tim LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins

If you are searching for your eschatological position, I would suggest Eschatology Today, since they present the pro's and con's of each position. Basically the editor of Eschatology Today helps you discover how to study the end times for yourself.

Eschatology Today

With much agape love,

George

I am determined to know nothing about anything except Christ and his crucifixion

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When preaching to the lost, or all the time?

Jesus cares that his people know everything that must come before he comes: "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23).

does it really matter what we believe eschatologically?

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I believe knowing the rapture's timing is important because if some Christians believe with all their heart that Jesus has promised them a pre-trib rapture, couldn't "many be offended" if it doesn't happen?

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:9-12).

"The same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

If you are searching for your eschatological position

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Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).


http://www.geocities.com/postrib

GEORGE!!!!!
Hey there! I thought that was you!
I feel I abandon the worthy board!
Ill be back!
Good to see you here!
Now you know where I have been!
GEL

Does anyone here recognize what happened to the slaughter of millions of jews by Hitler comparable to the prophecy/ who were persecuted and killed for his name sake?
I have often wondered about this.
Wildfire

"Does anyone here recognize what happened to the slaughter of millions of jews by Hitler comparable to the prophecy/ who were persecuted and killed for his name sake?
I have often wondered about this. "
Wildfire


Sure, you could go with that excuse, or you could assume, rather sensibly I would say, that this sort of mass killing will inevitably occur once again... world war 3 per-chance?

WHo loves Jesus, I love Jesus

Hi 777warrior and posttrib!! :clap
Good to see you!!
I remember you from the Rapture Ready board?! Christine booted me off

As you probably remember, I am pre-trib

If you are a premillennialist with a literal outlook on prophecy then post-trib is fairly easy to disprove with just a little bit of study. I've been unable to conclusively disprove mid-trib and it does have a lot of support, but pre-trib also has support. I lean to pre-trib but I'm prepared to accept mid trib almost as easily.

post-trib is fairly easy to disprove with just a little bit of study

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I'd love to see this done.

There's not one Bible verse which says Christians will be removed from the earth before the Second Coming. Period. The rest is speculation and interpretations.

post-trib is fairly easy to disprove with just a little bit of study

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I'd love to see this done.

There's not one Bible verse which says Christians will be removed from the earth before the Second Coming. Period. The rest is speculation and interpretations.

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Me too.

Do we agree that Jesus fulfilled the Law? That if He transgressed in one law that He transgressed all and is not worthy to be the sacrificial lamb that takes away the sins of the world? That God would not create a law that He Himself (through Jesus) would be unable or unwilling to keep? I can quote verse for each of these if there is any doubt, so...

2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Deu 20:7 And what man [is there] that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

Deu 24:5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: [but] he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

So Jesus is engaged and by God's law he is prohibited from going out to war, and once married is prohibited from conducting business and going to war for one year. So tell me, how can Jesus come on a white horse as described in Rev 19 unless He has already been married for at least one year?

That is the simplest, most direct, and concise refutation I can give. Post trib violates God's law, therefore it is an untenable position.

Originally posted by Rjano21


I'd love to see this done.

There's not one Bible verse which says Christians will be removed from the earth before the Second Coming. Period. The rest is speculation and interpretations.

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If you study carefully Revelation 19, you will see that the Church is in heaven before the Second Coming, and returning with Christ at the Second Coming.

All of those still on earth are on the receiving end of God's wrath:

I will put key verses showing the elect in bold, and key verses showing "everyone else" I will underline them:

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Jesus is engaged and by God's law he is prohibited from going out to war

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I believe the old covenant law has been abolished:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" (Ephesians 2:15).

"There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14).

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

"If the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:7-13).

"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

"There is no more offering for sin" (Hebrews 10:18).

If you study carefully Revelation 19, you will see that the Church is in heaven before the Second Coming, and returning with Christ at the Second Coming

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Most of the church will be returning "with" Christ from the 3rd heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14), as most of it will have died before or during the tribulation. But in Revelation 19:14 "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven."

I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), and we'll all descend with Christ to the battle (Revelation 19:14-15), and then land in Jerusalem for the supper (Revelation 19:9, Isaiah 25:5-9).


http://www.geocities.com/postrib

. So tell me, how can Jesus come on a white horse as described in Rev 19 unless He has already been married for at least one year?

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Wait a minute. How can you apply old testament laws concerning human marriages to Christ's marriage to the Church? Those laws do not apply in this situation. Its not the sort of marriage described in the old testament. Christians today aren't required to keep old testament laws because of the work of Christ. So how can he (being on the right hand of the Father) still be subject to them?

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready

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So the marriage is occuring in Rev 19, immediately before the second coming.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean

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I do understand your point here, but the post-trib position (at least the one I believe) holds that the rapture occurs immediately prior to the Second Coming (perhaps a half hour earlier... see Rev 8:1). Dead Christians are resurrected and alive Christians are caught up to be with the Lord just after the Great tribulation, as the 7 vials of God's wrath are being poured out (we're not subject to His wrath, so the vials aren't for us). The marriage then proceeds, and soon after we return with him in verse 14. I don't dispute your point of the church being in heaven, I just don't believe they've been there for 7 years (or more).

Now I'll state the 2 best proofs I have for a post-trib position and let you think on those...

#1 1 Thes. 4:15-17: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These verses are normally taught to refer to the rapture. The dead are resurrected, and those who are alive are caught up (raptured) to be with the Lord forever. Right? Lets now look at Revelation 20:4-6:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast , neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection . Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This passage in Rev 20 states that the First Resurrection includes those people who had been through the great tribulation and refused the mark of the beast. If the first resurrection is after the great tribulation, how then can the rapture in 1 Thessalonians be before it (since the resurrection and rapture are simultaneous)? I believe these two passages teach clearly that there is only one rapture, and its after the mark of the beast.

#2 Read through Matthew 24.

Verses 29-31: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now, this same description of "sun darkened, moon not giving light, stars falling from heaven, powers of heavens shaken" is found elsewhere, mostly in the old testament where it refers to the "Day of the Lord." It is the beginning of God's wrath upon the world. See Joel 2:31, Amos 5:18, Acts 2:20, Eze 30:3.

Now, according to Matt 24:29-31, the Day of the Lord comes after the tribulation. And during this time, everyone will see Jesus Christ returning. Now read verse 31. It says at this time he will send his angels to gather his elect (Christians). That's a rapture. So now, you can either believe in two raptures (pre-trib) or you can believe that the Lord Jesus was being truthful in his account of the endtimes. He did not mention a rapture before the tribulation, he mentioned one after. Why would he leave out a pre-trib rapture if there was one? Was he trying to deceive us? No. He was being accurate in his prophecy.

A parallel account of verse 31 is found in Rev 14:14-19. This is where the angels "reap" the earth twice, once for believers first, then for unbelievers (the grapes, cast into the winepress of wrath). This is also a parallel of Christ's parable of the wheat and tares. Christians are raptured, while the heathen are cast into wrath. That fits pretty good with my position.

Thank the Lord this isnt a salvation issue but its still an important topic to discuss. I was taught pre-trib most of my life, but after checking it out myself, I found too much scripture to the contrary. 1 Thes 5:21 says "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good."

Rjano21

With you viewpoint you would have been better off to simply extend the time period of the vials to at least one year and allow Jesus to keep the law. Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. ALL things written in the law of Moses concerning Jesus MUST BE FULFILLED.

I didn't use the term marriage to describe the relationship of the church to Jesus, God did. Human marriage (as instituted by God) is a foreshadowing of the relationship between Christ and the church. Not only did God describe it as a marriage, but even went into greater detail such as describing wedding guests, the wedding feast, friends of the bridgroom, etc so we wouldn't miss this vitally important truth. If God calls it a marriage then we have no right to rip out the verses of the bible that tells us about the responsibilities of marriage, even when it conflicts with our carefully worked out ideas.

I haven't the time to teach you about the law. To argue that Jesus is exempt from the law violates the word of God and it just isn't an option. The bible tells us over and over again that Jesus fulfilled the law, was perfect in every aspect. Jesus continued to fulfill the law after his resurrection by becoming the High Priest and entering the heavenly holy of holies to purify the alter with the blood of the perfect sacrifice. This occured AFTER the crucifixion so to say that Jesus nailed the law to the cross and is now exempt from the law is contrary to scripture which shows him continuing to fulfill the law. It is only because Jesus is the fulfillment of the law that we are free from it. If Jesus becomes a transgressor then we also transgress. If you don't understand these basic bible truths then we cannot have an intelligent discussion about prophecy.

About the first resurrection. The first resurrection began two thousand years ago with Jesus being the firstfruits of those who sleep. It doesn't begin AFTER the mark of the beast IT HAS ALREADY begun with Jesus. The verse you quote can only refer to the consumation, or completion of the first resurection, not its beginning. As such it can't be used as a time indicator of the resurrection. The resurrection is pictured in terms of a harvest, which has THREE parts. Firstfruits, Harvest, Gleanings. This analogy alone proves that there are three distinct phases of the 'first' resurrection.

To those who seek a single verse that proves a pre-trib rapture... there isn't any such verse. But when you start trying to reconcile a multitude of seemingly contradictory verses you will see that there are some views which can be eliminated.