Post Scripture denying abortion or supporting it

[lux et lex]

Lux et Lux,
If people are giving people choice to do things they see as sad then more fool them.

I think all pro-choice abortion is sad but you think gay foetus abortion is sad. You must be very pro gay then.

So are you in favor of controlling every choice that people make that makes you sad?

I am in favor of homosexual rights, but the reason I think that's sad, is in the situation I stated earlier...a pro life person getting an abortion because the fetus may be gay. I think it's hypocritical and sad. That doesn't make me a fool for allowing them to do it. I just think it's a poor choice, but a choice they are legally allowed to make.

 

[childofdust]

If a fetus does not have a spirit when it is born, then it is not taking human life.

But if a fetus has a spirit when it is born, it is taking human life despite not having developed personality.

Bingo. But by “spirit,” I refer more specifically to breath. Ruach.

Man became a living being after after he breathed (or “spirit” entered him). - Genesis 2:7

When YHWH took the bones in the valley of Ezekiel's vision and reformed them into human beings, YHWH didn't call these humans “living” until breath entered them. - Ezekiel 37:8-14

If a person hits a pregnant woman and she loses the baby, it is not considered the murder of a human being (if it was considered murder, the man would be charged with death under the Law, but he is not). - Exodus 21:22

It's a basic concept shared by Israelite and Canaanite society that human life begins and ends at breath, which is why so many ancient texts speak of the acquisition of breath as life or the loss of breath as death.

The Jewish writings understood this and so they spoke on abortion accordingly:

If a woman was in hard travail, the child must be cut up while it is in the womb and brought out member by member, since the life of the mother has priority over the life of the child; but if the greater part [the head] of it has already been born, it [the baby] may not be touched, since the claim of one life cannot override the claim of another life.
--Mishnah, Oholoth, 7:6

It is not until the head has emerged that the child is considered “life” because until the head has emerged, there is no way that the child could be able to breathe. And without breath, there is no life. If it were a violation of Torah to slaughter a fetus, this ancient Oral Law of Israel would not exist. But it certainly knows of God's law against the destruction of human life and it has no problem with the termination of a non-living child. See scriptures above.

Does that mean I support abortion? Not at all. Anyone who does that sort of thing except in extreme circumstances is oftentimes suffering from serious issues that need to be resolved in their life. If I knew anyone close to me that had done such a thing or was thinking of doing such a thing, I would seek help for them immediately out of my love and concern for them (not the non-living baby).

 

[brightmorningstar]

Lux et Lex,

So are you in favor of controlling every choice that people make that makes you sad?

No, but the ones that are murder I am.

I am in favor of homosexual rights, but the reason I think that's sad, is in the situation I stated earlier...a pro life person getting an abortion because the fetus may be gay.

Why are you not sad about foetuses being aborted by choice until it comes to one that might be gay?

I think it's hypocritical and sad.

And what is your eason that you think its sad?

That doesn't make me a fool for allowing them to do it. I just think it's a poor choice, but a choice they are legally allowed to make.

But why gay foetuses and not anyone other foetus? If you think aborting all foetuses by chocie is sad then it wont bother you if its a gay foetus, but if you think aborting a gay foetus is a bad choice then you must think some foetus abortion is a good choice.

 

[brightmorningstar]

childofdust,

Bingo. But by “spirit,” I refer more specifically to breath. Ruach.

but thats your assumption, there is no link of that to abortion.

Man became a living being after after he breathed (or “spirit” entered him). - Genesis 2:7

Ok but Jesus breathed on the disciples and poured out the Spirit, terminating the unboirn would be removing God's purpose for the individual to do that. If that is the case then why not be able to terninate anyone who doesnt have the Holy Spirit?

When YHWH took the bones in the valley of Ezekiel's vision and reformed them into human beings, YHWH didn't call these humans “living” until breath entered them. - Ezekiel 37:8-14

Yeah, when YHWH took the bones and breathed life in them, the bones were dead not alive like the unborn baby, and we arent YHWH.

If a person hits a pregnant woman and she loses the baby, it is not considered the murder of a human being (if it was considered murder, the man would be charged with death under the Law, but he is not). - Exodus 21:22

You are listening to those who dont cite this passage properly. If men fight and the unborn comes out prematurely, it doesnt mean its a miscarriage, if no harm is done there is no life for life. So do you allow women to be beaten? Cos thats what happened if there was no harm done when a woman was hit by men fighting.

It's a basic concept shared by Israelite and Canaanite society that human life begins and ends at breath, which is why so many ancient texts speak of the acquisition of breath as life or the loss of breath as death.

Its nothing of the sort, you havent read the passage properly. And if God knows people in the womb, Job, Pslams AND Jeremiah abortion is terminating what God knows and has plans for. Even allowing for your misinterpetaion those 3 soon at least cancel out the exodus and ezekiel passages you have quoted.

 

[lux et lex]

Lux et Lex,
No, but the ones that are murder I am.

Why are you not sad about foetuses being aborted by choice until it comes to one that might be gay?
And what is your eason that you think its sad?
But why gay foetuses and not anyone other foetus? If you think aborting all foetuses by chocie is sad then it wont bother you if its a gay foetus, but if you think aborting a gay foetus is a bad choice then you must think some foetus abortion is a good choice.

Well abortion isn't murder, so no issue there.

It's not just ones that might be gay. I think categorically if you are hellbent against having an abortion and then get one after you find out the fetus may be unfavorable to your beliefs is a sad reflection on you. But I'm still going to support your choice to go get one.

Abortion is never a great situation. Desperation gets a woman to that point, and she has already wrestled with herself the pro's and con's. It's a legal procedure and I'm going to support her body integrity. Simple as that.

 

[Jpark]

Jpark,
That makes no sense, the foetus is observably a stage in the development of the human being before its born.

A very dangerous thinking indeed, all kinds of judgements could be made. For example on that basis why not abort all gay foetuses, if they aren’t human yet and they wont be right when they are born?
I find the whole of your argument disturbing.

Is it born with a spirit or not? It's obviously born with the breath and the soul materializes later but what about the spirit?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Lux et lex,

Well abortion isn't murder, so no issue there.

As it is observably obvious it is, big concern here that some people dont know when murder is taking place and are even encouraging it.

But I'm still going to support your choice to go get one.

The question was about your view not mine, why would you assume the choice to abort is ok but sad in a particular instance? Why is the abortion of a potentially gay foetus sad when the abortion of other foetuses not sad? What about left handed foetuses.

Abortion is never a great situation. Desperation gets a woman to that point, and she has already wrestled with herself the pro's and con's.

YEah but we are interested in the baby, the woman can recover from the depression caused by bad education and mindset, through the help of drugs and better education but the unborn baby's life is at stake.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jpark,

That makes no sense, the foetus is observably a stage in the development of the human being before its born.

A very dangerous thinking indeed, all kinds of judgements could be made. For example on that basis why not abort all gay foetuses, if they aren’t human yet and they wont be right when they are born?

I find the whole of your argument disturbing.

Well thats nothing in comparison with how I find the pro-choice abortion argument as mentally unstable as well as disturbing and disgusting. But I think exchanging views on the issues is better than swapping opinions.

Is it born with a spirit or not? It's obviously born with the breath and the soul materializes later but what about the spirit?

Sorry there is no scripture to support the idea that whatever spirit we are talking about is a factor in being able to abort an unborn child. First you would need to show its a factor. .. but dont bother as clearly all babies breathe and have a spirit when born, the Holy Spirit is given when the person believes.
Now see Luke 8, the girl who died obviously had a spirit, and when Jesus gave her life again she breathed again. Is the unborn baby in the womb dead like the girl was? NO, The baby in the womb is living, its heart beating, it is not about spirit.

Quite how and why, when the unborn baby will naturally, if left alone, be born, can pro-choice people decide in different countries around the world, that at various weeks of development the unborn child can be terminated if the mother wants is a manifestation of the world,
Ephesians 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

 

[lux et lex]

Lux et lex,
As it is observably obvious it is, big concern here that some people dont know when murder is taking place and are even encouraging it.

The question was about your view not mine, why would you assume the choice to abort is ok but sad in a particular instance? Why is the abortion of a potentially gay foetus sad when the abortion of other foetuses not sad? What about left handed foetuses.

YEah but we are interested in the baby, the woman can recover from the depression caused by bad education and mindset, through the help of drugs and better education but the unborn baby's life is at stake.

I'm sorry you don't get it. Let me spell it out for you one more time. It's not just homosexual fetuses being aborted that I think is sad. It's all sad, but sometimes is the right choice. No matter the reason, abortion is a tough, but legal decision a woman makes and I am going to support her and her body integrity. Plain and simple.

I'm not going to continue to answer the same questions for you. If you have something new, go ahead, but otherwise you can just reread this post and that's your answer.

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

It's all sad, but sometimes is the right choice. No matter the reason, abortion is a tough, but legal decision a woman makes and I am going to support her and her body integrity. Plain and simple.

Same here.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Lux et Lex,
Ah you seemed to have changed your story now. Now you are being consistent.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Well for many apart pure choice is never right. Sadly we are in a dark age where some think its ok for kill in circumstances they dont think is killing, but soon get angry and vindicative when others decide to kill and it doesnt fot their worldview.

But again, pro-choice abortion has nothing do to with any scriptures presented. Firstly the pro-choice argument ignores that God knows and forms people in the womb, they say they believe He is the creator God but show they dont mean it. They then make all kinds of subjective value judgements amongst themselves as to what the criteria for the termination is, whether 12 or 24 weeks, whether its because of sentience or spirit or the ability to feel pain.
But the doctor peforming the abortion in a clinic is not the result of men fighting and hitting a woman, the pro-chocie offer this passage yet then deny the right of a man to hit a woman. They assume incorrectly the harm done is to the woman, but the text says the woman was hit causing the premature release, so there was harm done, so when the text says if there is no harm it must mean to the child.
The abortion clinic when human doctors perfom the murder has nothing to do with the priest offerring the result to God.

Once again as with all liberalism the deception to twist what the text says to suit the liberal worldview, not the Kingdom of God.

 

[lux et lex]

Lux et Lex,
Ah you seemed to have changed your story now. Now you are being consistent.

Actually, if you read through this thread, it's pretty much what's I've said all along. You have just finally chosen to read it.

 

[Jpark]

but dont bother as clearly all babies breathe and have a spirit when born, the Holy Spirit is given when the person believes.
Now see Luke 8, the girl who died obviously had a spirit, and when Jesus gave her life again she breathed again. Is the unborn baby in the womb dead like the girl was? NO, The baby in the womb is living, its heart beating, it is not about spirit.

Is that a challenge?

He said sleeping. In John 11, in the case of Lazarus, He says dead. Simple.

Spirit can often be used in the place of breath. In the former it is breath. In the latter it is spirit and breath.

See 2 Kings 4:33-35. There is a possibility that the sneezing signifies the removal of a demon. But either way, it is clear that this one died. What is the significance of Elisha 'put his mouth on his mouth and his eyes on his eyes and his hands on his hands'?

But the girl was not dead. She was sleeping.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jpark,
You are clutching at straws. All the passages given revolve around what God does, not the wishes of a mother to choose to kill her own unborn child.

 

[Jpark]

Jpark,
You are clutching at straws.

All the passages given revolve around what God does, not the wishes of a mother to choose to kill her own unborn child.

Well let's just change the subject then because I just wanted to clarify on spirit. This is about abortion after all.

Then again, I'm not interested in debating abortion. I'll be leaving.

 

[pureinheart]

Well for many apart pure choice is never right. Sadly we are in a dark age where some think its ok for kill in circumstances they dont think is killing, but soon get angry and vindicative when others decide to kill and it doesnt fot their worldview.

But again, pro-choice abortion has nothing do to with any scriptures presented. Firstly the pro-choice argument ignores that God knows and forms people in the womb, they say they believe He is the creator God but show they dont mean it. They then make all kinds of subjective value judgements amongst themselves as to what the criteria for the termination is, whether 12 or 24 weeks, whether its because of sentience or spirit or the ability to feel pain.
But the doctor peforming the abortion in a clinic is not the result of men fighting and hitting a woman, the pro-chocie offer this passage yet then deny the right of a man to hit a woman. They assume incorrectly the harm done is to the woman, but the text says the woman was hit causing the premature release, so there was harm done, so when the text says if there is no harm it must mean to the child.
The abortion clinic when human doctors perfom the murder has nothing to do with the priest offerring the result to God.

Once again as with all liberalism the deception to twist what the text says to suit the liberal worldview, not the Kingdom of God.

First and third bold- I fail to understand this concept, to say one is a "Christian" and then to say abortion is ok regardless of the age of the baby in womb astounds me. On a secular site, some of the "Christians" there also carry this concept...only God can judge the heart as far as if they are really saved or not, but I question it greatly.

Second bold- If there is anyone that needs evidence that a baby feels pain at the point of abortion, then I suggest you watch "Silent Scream" narrated by Charlton Heston. I have the link, although it is very hard to watch .... also I challenge "Christians" that say abortion is ok to look at the ways babies are killed...it's disturbing and similar, if not worse than those that suffered at the hands of barbarians during the Holocaust.

 

[Larry Mondello]

If there is anyone that needs evidence that a baby feels pain at the point of abortion, then I suggest you watch "Silent Scream" narrated by Charlton Heston. I have the link, although it is very hard to watch .... also I challenge "Christians" that say abortion is ok to look at the ways babies are killed...it's disturbing and similar, if not worse than those that suffered at the hands of barbarians during the Holocaust.

Well-stated, Pure.

Never considered, encouraged or pressured a woman to have an abortion, though can certainly understand womens' plight in this.

My future wife, told her I admired her for her pro-life stance and assured her I would be there if we became parents (too early).

Am not gonna condemn women for having abortions, as even Christian women have undergone them. It is sad and tragic that something can't be done about this carnage.