Post modern Christian

[nickyandersonuk]

What do you all think about us entering into a different age where the old ways of doing church are not relating to our culture and society, We had the medievil times which had to change we have the modern times do you think we are entering to a post modern time?

 

[rapturefish]

Some churches do this.

One church I went to had an innovative approach - they held services with everyone seated at coffee tables! The worship would start and it's all digital overhead projector and full band going out. After worship we have a few announcements and then a ten-minute coffee break halfway through the service!

There's a bookshop and creche inside the hall and you can browse around. After everyone's relaxed the message begins. And that's it.

We need to look at making church a place where the community can come in and feel welcomed. I thought this approach was great though not the only way to go about it.

I think a church should own its building - that if possible they somehow put their own hands in the making of the building or decorating it. make it their home building.

We should not shun the arts in this case. We were very iconoclastic in the Reformation but that was more reactionary to idolatry. Now we need to use the arts to glorify God and make the place a testimony to what a joyous God we serve.

We need to be down to earth, not talking down to people. We need to interact, to make church conducive to relating to each other. At the same time worship needs to be in line with the vibrancy of our faith.

At the core of it though the Holy Spirit must be working in us. We can't have any of this without Love, and having the experience of God's joy in us! Once we have Spirit-filled lives then everything else just expresses itself.

blessings,

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by nickyandersonuk
What do you all think about us entering into a different age where the old ways of doing church are not relating to our culture and society, We had the medievil times which had to change we have the modern times do you think we are entering to a post modern time?

I've been doing a lot of reading on this of late..... and overall I've been liking what I've seen. Major recommendations for Brian McLaren for anyone who hasn't hear dof him

Overall, change scares people, especially Christians it seems... but the church must stay relevant, and speak to the time in which it exists. That's not to say Doctrine has to change, but the vehicle of said doctrine should stay adaptable.....

 

-Elias

 

 

[syphina]

Originally posted by EliasEmmanuel
Overall, change scares people, especially Christians it seems... but the church must stay relevant, and speak to the time in which it exists. That's not to say Doctrine has to change, but the vehicle of said doctrine should stay adaptable.....

 

-Elias

  [/B]

Yes, change is scary, but the church needs to change, first of all because our society is changing and second because we need to challenge our faith by using change. I'm not saying we should change every aspect of the church, because there are very important factors that need to be kept, such as a balance between worship and knowledge.

 

[Susan]

One change I think would do MUCH good is to move church time to a later time on Sundays. There is no solid commandment to have church services early in the morning, so why could there not be a main church service around midday or even at night?

Many more people would come, and while it may require somewhat less self-sacrifice for Christians to attend a 12:00 PM or even 5:00 PM service than a 9:00 AM one, it would bring many more people in, and much more of the message would be comprehended by people who are more alert.

 

[seebs]

I have to say, God didn't make me a morning person. No matter what happens, I get up around 10-11 unless I was up really really late, and if I try to get up earlier, I'm sleepy and stupid all day.

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by syphina
Yes, change is scary, but the church needs to change, first of all because our society is changing and second because we need to challenge our faith by using change. I'm not saying we should change every aspect of the church, because there are very important factors that need to be kept, such as a balance between worship and knowledge.

Well, I'm not sure it's a balance we maintain REAL well now.... but I think it's one we could be closer to in a Postmodern context..... given postmodernism's emphasis on experience and so forth.

The overall feeling I got growing up, teaching-wise, was "read the bible and do what it says".... I'd been a Christian for some time before I found out that God wanted to deal with me in a personal way and the Holy Spirit wasn't just there to kick me in the but when I did something wrong.... And I think worship has a much wider context than we usually give it.

-Elias

 

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by seebs
I have to say, God didn't make me a morning person. No matter what happens, I get up around 10-11 unless I was up really really late, and if I try to get up earlier, I'm sleepy and stupid all day.

Which is exactly why I'm glad my church meets at 4

 

-Elias

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by rapturefish
Some churches do this.

One church I went to had an innovative approach - they held services with everyone seated at coffee tables! The worship would start and it's all digital overhead projector and full band going out. After worship we have a few announcements and then a ten-minute coffee break halfway through the service!

There's a bookshop and creche inside the hall and you can browse around. After everyone's relaxed the message begins. And that's it.

Ewww, too irreverent for me. It sounds like, "Hey Jesus, we're gonna hang out and drink some coffee... and oh, you can come too if you want"

I think a church should own its building - that if possible they somehow put their own hands in the making of the building or decorating it. make it their home building.

We should not shun the arts in this case. We were very iconoclastic in the Reformation but that was more reactionary to idolatry. Now we need to use the arts to glorify God and make the place a testimony to what a joyous God we serve.

Definitely... If someone is an artisan, they should be allowed to use their skill in glorifying God and not feel condemned.

 

[ZiSunka]

Traditional church in the northern hemisphere of the western world is different than church everywhere else. Experience the church of different cultures and you will see that church is related to culture--the culture of the Christians in that church.

If you are going to a stogie church that won't update itself, go to one you feel more comfortable with!

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Ewww, too irreverent for me.

 
And so unlike the way Jesus himself did things, right?

 

Definitely... If someone is an artisan, they should be allowed to use their skill in glorifying God and not feel condemned.

Definitely.

-Elias

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by EliasEmmanuel
And so unlike the way Jesus himself did things, right?

Well, what I meant was that when I walk into a church, I expect it to be a house of prayer. Like, when I walk in the door, I want to feel free to go to my seat in the sanctuary and be able to pray; I like to get myself spiritually ready for hearing the message, and I like to meditate beforehand. That's very difficult when people are all chattering and clinking coffee mugs and there's a rock band blasting away.

Definitely.

For real... Some people are so down on cathedrals and such for having all those fancy structures, windows, carvings, sculptures, paintings, and such. But what they fail to see is that people did this stuff to glorify God. And another thing they don't see is that a lot of people donate their services to the church for God.

 

[syphina]

how true! although even the older tradionalist churches need a little change now and then.

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Well, what I meant was that when I walk into a church, I expect it to be a house of prayer. Like, when I walk in the door, I want to feel free to go to my seat in the sanctuary and be able to pray; I like to get myself spiritually ready for hearing the message, and I like to meditate beforehand. That's very difficult when people are all chattering and clinking coffee mugs and there's a rock band blasting away.

I could see that..... and I kinda middle on this one. I love contemporary worship sometimes, but sometimes I find myself really longing for something more contemplative. I guess there's a middle group to be found..... my whole thing, I guess, is that chuirch should be a comfortable place, a real honest to gosh Sanctuary rather than feeling like your grandmother's living room, where you can't touch anything and your parents are warning you to be on your best behavior.... relaxed and welcoming, but still a worshipful environment, y'know?

For real... Some people are so down on cathedrals and such for having all those fancy structures, windows, carvings, sculptures, paintings, and such. But what they fail to see is that people did this stuff to glorify God. And another thing they don't see is that a lot of people donate their services to the church for God.

Yeah, definitely.... I think Andy Crouch said in a recent issue of Christianity Today that when you open your eyes in a Catholic or Eastern church, you see images of stories from scripture, great figures of the faith....but when you open your eyes in a protestant church, all you see is other protestants, and that's not as inspiring I guess I middle on this too.... I'm SUCH a fan of the arts as a way to glorify God, but at the same time I really despise the prim, proper, ostentatious image the church ends up with..... again, there's probably a balance there. But in any case, I really believe Christian artists should be encouraged to be creative, not to rehash the same things and stick to a Neoclassical type of look.....

-Elias

 

[Susan]

Originally posted by EliasEmmanuel
Yeah, definitely.... I think Andy Crouch said in a recent issue of Christianity Today that when you open your eyes in a Catholic or Eastern church, you see images of stories from scripture, great figures of the faith....but when you open your eyes in a protestant church, all you see is other protestants, and that's not as inspiring  

LOL!!!

 

[Susan]

Seriously, there is a balance there, and that is why I say that there is something good about the individuality and variety that is allowed in the Christian faith.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by EliasEmmanuel
I could see that..... and I kinda middle on this one. I love contemporary worship sometimes, but sometimes I find myself really longing for something more contemplative. I guess there's a middle group to be found..... my whole thing, I guess, is that chuirch should be a comfortable place, a real honest to gosh Sanctuary rather than feeling like your grandmother's living room, where you can't touch anything and your parents are warning you to be on your best behavior.... relaxed and welcoming, but still a worshipful environment, y'know?

Yeah, I can see that. I guess I just have a different feeling about it. When I walk in a church, I like to take in the presence of God, ya know? Like, I want to be inspired and reminded of Him. I like it to be a special place, where I can sit down, and just pray, or cry, weep, mourn, get on my knees, and a special place like a grand sanctuary... it just moves my soul. What you might consider "stuffy", I think of as holy, and sacred. I am reminded of the ornate nature of the early Hebrew tents, temples, and such, the history of our religion. I love ornate things. It sets my mind, and heart, and soul, into the contemplative prayer state that I so desire. It's like, when was the last time you walked into your church, and saw people quietly praying in the pews, maybe weeping, perhaps meditating? Do you think you could do that in your sanctuary, without people thinking you were out of your mind? See, I need that kind of environment. It's who I am. It's who I need to be.

Yeah, definitely.... I think Andy Crouch said in a recent issue of Christianity Today that when you open your eyes in a Catholic or Eastern church, you see images of stories from scripture, great figures of the faith....but when you open your eyes in a protestant church, all you see is other protestants, and that's not as inspiring I guess I middle on this too.... I'm SUCH a fan of the arts as a way to glorify God, but at the same time I really despise the prim, proper, ostentatious image the church ends up with..... again, there's probably a balance there. But in any case, I really believe Christian artists should be encouraged to be creative, not to rehash the same things and stick to a Neoclassical type of look.....

Oh, I love the traditional art in Roman and Orthodox churches. It just stirs something in my soul. It empowers me. I fall beneath Christ's love, and I am just in awe. I think God gave us beautiful things for a purpose. But now, if your qualm is just over the style, then maybe, yeah, I can see that. I guess I'm just more traditional. I love the old styles. It feels like a heritage to me, so beautiful. Anyhoo, thanks for sharing. Peace.

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Yeah, I can see that. I guess I just have a different feeling about it. When I walk in a church, I like to take in the presence of God, ya know? Like, I want to be inspired and reminded of Him. I like it to be a special place, where I can sit down, and just pray, or cry, weep, mourn, get on my knees, and a special place like a grand sanctuary... it just moves my soul. What you might consider "stuffy", I think of as holy, and sacred. I am reminded of the ornate nature of the early Hebrew tents, temples, and such, the history of our religion. I love ornate things. It sets my mind, and heart, and soul, into the contemplative prayer state that I so desire. It's like, when was the last time you walked into your church, and saw people quietly praying in the pews, maybe weeping, perhaps meditating? Do you think you could do that in your sanctuary, without people thinking you were out of your mind? See, I need that kind of environment. It's who I am. It's who I need to be.

Oh I definitely understand.... but like I said, I kinda middle on this......... I love all the things you said, very much, but at the same time I'm wary of ornateness bleeding over into pride, selfishness and concern with style over substance (of course this applies to "relaxed" churches as well). I'm wary of churches that are very big or ostentatious, I guess because IMO 2 of the Church's biggest responsibilities are to be a family to each other and to be of service to the community...... find myself wondering how close knit a church of 5000 can be, or what need should've been filled before this or that decoration.......

Oh, I love the traditional art in Roman and Orthodox churches. It just stirs something in my soul. It empowers me. I fall beneath Christ's love, and I am just in awe. I think God gave us beautiful things for a purpose. But now, if your qualm is just over the style, then maybe, yeah, I can see that. I guess I'm just more traditional. I love the old styles. It feels like a heritage to me, so beautiful. Anyhoo, thanks for sharing. Peace.

Oh, so do I........ I'd LOVE to see Notre Dame and Hagia Sophia with my own eyes, the majesty of those sorts of places..... and when I visited New York a made a point of seeing St. Patricks. I guess I'm torn between my own passions as an artist and the simplicity of Jesus.

On the style side.... all I was driving at was that every cathedral doesn't need to be a little Notre Dame (Gothic revival architecture, neoclassical sculpture and painting). This conversation has me remembering an idea I had, of how cool it might be to see a church/cathedral with lots of indoor plants, possibly a garden, and a lot of nature-themed architecture.... maybe pillars shaped like trees, some art nouveau-esque vine/floral motifs..... I just think artists doing work for God should have a tabula rasa to work with....

I dunno.... I walk into a lot of churches and it feels like a school building, or the sanctuary feels like an auditorium or a set where the "show" takes place...... not the least bit "homey", y'know? The Grandma's Living Room problem..... feels a little like the human element has gotten pushed back by the structure and order.....

But now I'm just ranting ;-) Incidentally, my church doesn't actually HAVE a sanctuary, or a building for that matter. We're a little campus church that uses the student center every week......

-Elias

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Definitely... If someone is an artisan, they should be allowed to use their skill in glorifying God and not feel condemned.

Our church has for its emphases on Global and local missions place art done on Cardboard boxes by some homeless people on our walls of our church. On another wall there is art from other countries.

Our church has used props like building a ship coming into the audience to help people grasp what that we are a living vessel for Christ and we are to spread throughout the world sharing the gospel.

I go to our Saturday night service which is no different than our Sunday service.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

And what if we went back to some of these churches when they were first being developed/started. I think we would find modern things about the churches. I think the church has to be relevant today, but at the same time not go liberal on the basic beleifs. The mindset should be to see others come to Christ and whatever will make that happen and truly helps makes better disciples should be done.

Though i do think some churches don't know how to put all this together, and that is why a group for creating mission oriented churches has come to our church to create a video on how to develop Bible believing churches that impact the community and the world and are willing to help start churches that will impact other people around them.