Post a Law and State if it should be followed today

Soyeong said:

There are more ways to do what is righteous or sinful than what God's law specifically prescribes or prohibits, but God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach of deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about a principle of righteousness that leads us to take physical actions that testify about God's righteousness in accordance with what His law instructs, and even leads us to take actions that are examples of that principle in situations that are not specifically prescribes or prohibited by God's law. Correctly understanding a spiritual principle will never lead us away from taking actions that are examples of that principle, for example, if someone thinks that they've understood the spiritual principle of love, so they no longer need to focus on taking physical actions that express love for their neighbor, then they would be missing the point.

The way that we live testifies about what we believe to be true about the nature of God, and as children of God, our goal should be to testify about His nature as accurately as we can by obeying His law. For example, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, such as by refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45), so by following those instructions we are testifying about His holiness while by not following those instructions is bearing false witness against God by representing Him as not being holy. The only way that we should no longer following God's laws for how to have a holy conduct as He is holy is if God is no longer eternally holy. When we testify about God's holiness in obedience to His law, we are expressing our love for His holiness, while someone who does not have a holy conduct in obedience to it is expressing that holiness is an aspect of God's nature that they do not love, and if God were not holy, then it would make no difference to them.

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Agreed the physical testifies the spiritual, after all Christ came in the physical. It is in fact the purpose of the law, a physical thing that testifies the spiritual. However although the physical testifies the spiritual it is part of a convent that we are not called under so we are not called to keep the physical. the law exists in a somewhat xenocentric vacuum and is not intended to function outside (hence the covenant boundary it is created in), if we force it outside it doesn't work. Our zealousness for the law can be a lost focus and estrange us from our mission of proclaiming Christ. Keep and follow the law but never in conflict with the focus of the gospel. there are too many cultures out there with direct conflicts of the law and I'm not willing to withhold the gospel from them because they eat shell fish or have tattoos. The law may still proclaim the gospel for all but all are not under the law.

Lulav said:

...some may be disqualified as they have stipulations attached such as they must be performed in the land of Israel...

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So just bringing this up for clarification...

That in itself wouldn't mean that the particular law would no longer be followed, just that it wouldn't be followed outside of Israel.

So regarding the law mentioned above about mixing grains on the same field: if you find yourself on a kibbutz in Israel during planting season (maybe you got a teaching visa or something),
those laws would still apply. That is, following the train of thought in the OP.
Comments?

DamianWarS said:

Agreed the physical testifies the spiritual, after all Christ came in the physical. It is in fact the purpose of the law, a physical thing that testifies the spiritual. However although the physical testifies the spiritual it is part of a convent that we are not called under so we are not called to keep the physical. the law exists in a somewhat xenocentric vacuum and is not intended to function outside (hence the covenant boundary it is created in), if we force it outside it doesn't work. Our zealousness for the law can be a lost focus and estrange us from our mission of proclaiming Christ. Keep and follow the law but never in conflict with the focus of the gospel. there are too many cultures out there with direct conflicts of the law and I'm not willing to withhold the gospel from them because they eat shell fish or have tattoos. The law may still proclaim the gospel for all but all are not under the law.

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The Son of God is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so as sons of God, our goal is to believe in and proclaim the Son and to testify about the spiritual is by being in his image by following his example of expressing God's nature in obedience to His law. When when considering whether to obey one of God's laws, we should be more concerned with the fact that obedience to it helps us to further that goal than with whom that law was given to, especially when that law was given to Israel in order to bless the nations by teaching the nations how to further that goal.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, and it is only possible to spread the Gospel to people who are under God's law. If there was anyone who was not under God's law, then they would have no need to repent from living in transgression of it, and thus they would have no need of the Gospel or of Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. If you teach that someone is not under God's law or if you don't teach repentance and obedience to it, such as repenting from eating unclean animals, then you are withholding the Gospel.

Soyeong said:

The Son of God is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so as sons of God, our goal is to believe in and proclaim the Son and to testify about the spiritual is by being in his image by following his example of expressing God's nature in obedience to His law. When when considering whether to obey one of God's laws, we should be more concerned with the fact that obedience to it helps us to further that goal than with whom that law was given to, especially when that law was given to Israel in order to bless the nations by teaching the nations how to further that goal.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, and it is only possible to spread the Gospel to people who are under God's law. If there was anyone who was not under God's law, then they would have no need to repent from living in transgression of it, and thus they would have no need of the Gospel or of Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. If you teach that someone is not under God's law or if you don't teach repentance and obedience to it, such as repenting from eating unclean animals, then you are withholding the Gospel.

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Our need for Christ is not dependant upon the law. Our ability to sin is also not dependent upon the law. The law's point is to show us we need Christ it is not to show us without the law there is no sin or need for Christ. I'm not sure what you mean by "it is only possible to spread the Gospel to people who are under God's law". Paul tells us "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law so as to win those not having the law." (1Cor9:21) Paul would seem to conflict with your missiological perspective.

DamianWarS said:

Our need for Christ is not dependant upon the law. Our ability to sin is also not dependent upon the law. The law's point is to show us we need Christ it is not to show us without the law there is no sin or need for Christ.

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In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, in Psalms 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth, and in John 1:14, the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, so Jesus is God's law/the truth/God's word made flesh. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so he is the personification or the physical manifestation of God's nature, and the way to accept or believe in him is by obeying the law of which he is the living embodiment. The law does not just teach us about our need for Christ, but also teaches us how to be like him.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it is only possible to spread the Gospel to people who are under God's law".

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If you tried to spread the Gospel to someone to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand and they responded that they aren't under the New Covenant, so they don't need to refrain from doing what its law reveals to be sin, they don't need to repent, and they don't need Jesus to have given him himself to pay the penalty for their sin, then how would you respond?

Paul tells us "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law so as to win those not having the law." (1Cor9:21) Paul would seem to conflict with your missiological perspective.

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Jews were in charge of copying and maintaining Torah scrolls, so they had the law, and Gentiles did not have possession of them, so they did not have the law, and if a Gentile wanted to read a Torah scroll, then they had to go through the Jews to do that, but today if you own a copy of the Bible, then you also have the law. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and obligated to refrain from what it reveals to be sin, otherwise God would have no grounds to judge the world in Revelation. Likewise, in 2 Peter 2:8, God judged Sodom and Gomorrah because of their lawless deeds, so they didn't get to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God's law and neither do we, but the choice we do get to make is whether or not we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey God's law.

Soyeong said:

heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey God's law.

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is that a quote from somewhere? where did you get it from?

Lulav said:

I really don't want to get into speciation and Baraminology here as it would take this thread way off track but I would say that mules are 99% sterile and it keeps them from following the law God gave to the animals to be fruitful and multiply.

I was 12 when we went to the Grand Canyon and were supposed to take a mule ride down to the bottom. I don't recall why we didn't or couldn't but I do understand that they are more stable and safer in that kind of territory.

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Okay, so we agree there are advantages to mules, cool that we can agree on that.

I'm glad you consider Be fruitful and multiply to be a law. I see it that way, too.

I don't think it should be followed today, at least not for humans, at least not in the physical sense. I think Jesus talks about people who are eunuchs for the kingdom.

DamianWarS said:

is that a quote from somewhere? where did you get it from?

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which he commissioned his disciples to spread to the nations (Matthew 28:16-20). There would be no point in this Gospel message being a light and being spread to the nations of the nations were not under the Mosaic Law and did not need to heed the Gospel, repent, and obey the Mosaic Law.

Furthermore, in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, in Psalms 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth, in John 1:14, the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, and in Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so Jesus is God's Law/the truth/God's word/God's nature made flesh, which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law. So the way that we live testifies about what we believe to be the truth of the Son's nature, we sanctify his name when we accurately testify about His nature through following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we take his name in vain when misrepresent the nature of who he is nature through our disobedience to it, which is why we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and that we are to be imitators of Paul because he is an imitator of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). For example, among other things, the Son is the righteousness of God made flesh, so when we do what is righteous in accordance with his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about the truth of his righteousness, or in other words, we are believing in the Son.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us how to do these works in accordance with His nature is part of the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Son and in Gospel that He spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and that he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20).

Lulav said:

It most definitely should still be followed today.

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It most definitely is followed today. Building codes require barriers to any areas of structures normally used by people to prevent a fall. Pitched roofs are not normally inhabited. Even stairs and decks/patios above a certain height require railings and railings have specific requirements as to height and distance between openings to prevent a child from falling through or getting stuck. Beyond this, liability insurance has latched on to insure against injury to others while on others' property.

Seems like this is a practical commandment concerned with the physical welfare of people. It aligns with the first and second greatest commandments of love God & neighbor. It is thus also spiritual. Interestingly it's adhered to by the secular who inherently know and agree in some ways that human welfare is important.

Lulav said:

I continued later on regarding post #8 and agreed with post #5
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Repetition is a way to learn and not forget.

"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. " Proverbs 22:6
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It is very important to start early teaching Gods ways. Even Aristotle once said, “Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.”

In this case I would say it falls under both.


There are commonly held to be 613 as summed up in the Middle ages by Maimonides, aka Rambam.
However the custom of writing the on the doorposts was not all as the doorpost would have to be pretty large to accommodate that.
When Joshua lead Israel into the Promised land he followed what Moses had taught him
And on the day you cross the Jordan into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, set up large stones and coat them with plaster.

And on the day you cross the Jordan into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, set up large stones and coat them with plaster. 3 Write on them all the words of this law when you have crossed over to enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you.​

Even in Jesus' time they knew it was impossible to do that at each individual home. Instead they applied a mezzuzah on the doorpost that contained scriptures.

Today those scriptures are from Deut. Including the greatest commandment according to Jesus.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart; you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes [origin of phylacteries]. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Deuteronomy 11:13-21 provides a similar message:

And it shall be that if you diligently obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the LORD your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul...I will give you the rain for your land in its season...that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil. And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled. Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them, lest the LORD's anger be aroused against you, and He shut up the heavens so that there be no rain, and the land yield no produce, and you perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you. Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall teach them to your children...when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, that your days...may be multiplied in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, like the days of the heavens above the earth.​

Which if you look at it surmises the first greatest and second greatest commandments.

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It seemed to me that in your post #10, you were concerned about keeping the thread on track.

Do you believe that post #5 is on track with the thread? It seemed to me that post #8 was as on track as #5.

I've noticed this in myself: I'm much more likely to give a lot of leeway to people I agree with.
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Anyways, it's not a big deal imo. Back to the law...

I know 613 is the traditional number of laws. Looking at how Rambam counted them, I think I would come up with a lot more.

Sounds like we agree that we don't have to write all of the laws on each door post. Taking a loose approach to the law, we could also say that perhaps what Moses is referring to is the 10 words, or what we usually think of as the ten commandments.

Writing just 10 words, like honor, idols, covet... That you can do on a doorpost.

It's possible that the other laws, say, in Leviticus, were added at a much later time and passed down from an oral tradition left from Moses.

Lulav said:

Believing that could lead to all kinds of problems, number one I could think of would be a biggie to uphold abortion.

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Do you believe that people who choose not to get married are involved in a sinful lifestyle?

If so, how do you understand Jesus saying that some people are eunuchs for the kingdom, and also Paul's recommendation that people remain in the state in which they were called?

Lulav said:

Let's look at them.

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

of the 27 versions listed only 3 state it properly.
The KJV (above) the NKJV and the Young's literal translation which says:

Young's Literal Translation
My statutes ye do keep: thy cattle thou dost not cause to gender with diverse kinds; thy field thou dost not sow with diverse kinds, and a garment of diverse kinds, shaatnez, doth not go up upon thee.

It even uses the Hebrew word 'shaatnez'

In Deut Moses defines it so there isn't confusion,

The KJV renders it as such:

Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
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The actual Hebrew reads:
Not You shall wear shaatnez - wool and linen mixed together

The translators added 'as of' which makes it look like it is an example but it is not.

It's like saying:
You shall not use purple paint - red and blue mixed together.

So Deut 22:11 is the same as Lev 19:19, just being more explicit.

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There appears to be a textual issue. Most translations of Leviticus 19 just say a mixed fabric, but some of them in the link below say linen and wool.

Or is this a translation issue?

Leviticus 19:19 - Bible Gateway

Leaf473 said:

There appears to be a textual issue. Most translations of Leviticus 19 just say a mixed fabric, but some of them in the link below say linen and wool.

Or is this a translation issue?

Leviticus 19:19 - Bible Gateway

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I like the strong's definition
"shaatnez: mixed stuff"

DamianWarS said:

The law points to a deeper meaning

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DamianWarS said:

Today it takes on a more spiritual meaning

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"deeper meaning" - "spiritual meaning" - do you mean the same thing by these 2 terms?

When Paul says "spiritual" in Galatians 6:1 and we track it back, he's using it in the same way Hebrews 5:14 uses "perfect" or "mature." So, interestingly a spiritual person in Galatians 6 is one who can identify any sin and assist others in dealing with sins, and in Hebrews 5 the mature is one who is learned/skilled in the "word of righteousness" & whose faculties are well exercised in judging both good & bad. Spirituality is an educated mentality based in God's righteousness.

When Jesus taught about the "deeper" things of the Law in regard to adultery, for instance, and took it back to even looking with lust, this was not new, but the actual intent of the Law in the first place, and the circumcised heart. I don't see the commandments (that I can think of at the moment) as ever being just physical. Torah means instruction. Instruction that goes into the mind, heart, conscience - the spirit - where it is spiritual & from where actions originate.

Deeper meanings? Sure. When I first looked at the food laws decades ago in a much less learned state (still have a long way to go), it struck me how the categories seemed aligned with how a creature functions. For instance, don't eat a certain type of fish because it basically functions as a water filter.

Point being respect for God as He has designed & structured His creation, and, yes, to be separate from the ungodly who don't know Him nor know or care about such things.

DamianWarS said:

this tells us the law itself is not universal but rather based on a more universal construct that law is built on

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Please explain what you mean.

DamianWarS said:

for the season of the law physical was the point, it's just not our focus now

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So, we can ignore its physical constraints? Sorry, I'm not intending to be demeaning, but this statement doesn't make any sense. Once again, a spiritual person has a godly, righteous mindset, and lives a physically pure life (to whatever level the training has taken the individual). And this means the person has been conformed to God's Law to some degree in mind and thus control of the physical, does it not?